Model 19-3 Cylinder Hang Up??

[saveaux]

Howdy folks!

I purchased my father's Model 19-3 that he bought new in 79 and only put about 5 boxes of .38 through it. I've had the gun about 3 years and have only put roughly 100 bullets through it, and nearly all of those were .38. I understand that shooting .38 through a .357 can lead to carbon build up in the cylinder and I can attest that despite this gun being in mint condition it did in fact have this build up.


This past weekend I shot maybe 24 .38 through it and then put in 6 white box winchester .357 hollow point rounds. They all shot fine however when I tried to open the cylinder it hung up. I had to pull (slide) the cylinder rearwards towards the hammer a slight bit and then it would open. I had to then pry 4 of the 6 .357 rounds out of the cylinder. I (maybe dumb of me) then shot 6.more of these rounds and the same thing happened.

I haven't shot the gun since. I took a .357 bore cleaner, attached an extension and then put it in my drill and drilled out each cylinder hole to get out the carbon buildup from the .38's that were shot through it. I then meticulously cleaned everything else.

The cylinder will still not open properly. I have to slide or pull it rearward (so it doesn't bind up with the firing cone) for it to open.

I checked the ejector rod and found it to be perfectly true.

I read that I could take a buisness card, open the cylinder, insert the buisness card on the bottom of the frame so it is covering the cylinder catch, close the cylinder, and the spin the cylinder counterclockwise while holding a finger snugly on the ejector rod to tighten it. I feel like it tightened a little bit, however it is STILL binding.

Any recommendations on how to fix this?

Would you think that it came from shooting .357 magnum rounds?

With this being said my dad wants the gun back and is willing to buy me a new 686 or GP100 in the stead. Now I'm scared that even the 686 won't be able to hold up to occasional hot loads and have read that despite its bad trigger out of the box, that the GP100 is a much stouter handgun. What's your opinion on this matter?

I've basically asked 3 questions and understand that I'm posting on a S&W forum so will probably get a subjective answer to the 3rd question but that's ok. Everyone's opinion counts to me.

 

[Boogsawaste]

To properly tighten your ejector rod I like to pull the cylinder and yoke out of the gun but I guess it can be done while installed. Get some old leather strips and wrap the knurled end of the ejector with it protecting it. Next either install it in a vice (preferred), or vice grips. I've heard of people using a drill press but haven't tried it so I can't comment. Insert some spent brass into the cylinder and turn it counterclockwise to tighten. It's reverse threaded. I won't take much force so don't go crazy on it. If it's loose you'll notice right away. I'm guessing this is your problem since you were able to tighten it with your finger. It needs to be tighter than that.

Also check your barrel to cylinder gap. If it's too tight carbon or lead build up can cause a bind.

 

[Nightowl]

Also, clean under the extractor and the cylinder under the extractor. It only takes one flake of unburned powder to create a tight opening and closing cylinder. If you can pull the cylinder to the rear to open it, it sounds like there is too much endshake, which will create a binding of the cylinder turning.
I do not shoot .357 magnums after I have shot or cleaned after shooting .38 lead bullets through a .357 chamber, even if they can be chambered. Just me, probably as I do not think a few would hurt the gun.

 

[BUFF]

Your Model 19 can handle factory .357's without anything worse than hard ejection if it is spec. Powder under the ejector star or a loose ejection rod are the most probable things, like posted above.

As far as the Model 686 and the other L frame .357's, you could probably load it with plutonium instead of powder and it will hold up. I will take the trigger action of a S&W over a Ruger any day of the week.

Please get back to us when you find the problem.

 

[saveaux]

I'd like to start off by saying that I truly appreciate each and everyone that's taken time out of their day to respond, thanks!

The gun is spotless, no carbon buildup or residual gunpowder anywhere. It's sat in a case for 99.9% of its life tucked away in a closet, when I say mint, it's damn close! So I don't think it's an issue of being a dirty gun.

To give a little more information, the rounds that started the cylinder issue are 110 grain Winchesters in a white box labeled hollow point self defense.

I tried to tighten the cylinder by wrapping an old leather belt around the ejection rod, clamp with vice grips, and then turn cylinder counterclockwise. The ejection rod simply spun inside the leather. Subsequently I removed the set screw that holds the cylinder in place and slid out the assembly. I put the ejection rod inside the same leather belt and then clamped in vice grips. Once again the ejection rod spun inside the leather. I reassembled everything and cylinder is now even MORE difficult to pop out. Pulling the cylinder rearwards towards the hammer still did the trick to pop it out no problems. The gun will dry fire without a hangup and the cylinder spins inside the gun as if there are zero problems. It simply will not pop out.

First question - it's very simple to remove the cylinder / ejection bolt assembly. Should I put it BACK in the vice while using two pieces of woof to retain it instead of the leather belt?

Second question - can I clamp TOO hard with the vice grip so much so that I could damage the retaining bolt? It's possible that I'm simply being too cautious and not clamping hard enough?

At this point I just have little bits of leather stuck in the rough end of the ejection bolt.

Is there ANY other thing that could cause this problem?

 

[Alk8944]

Saveaux,

You have basically one problem with this revolver, and that is end-shake! You shouldn't be able to "pull the cylinder to the rear", there should be virtually no axial play with the cylinder closed. If the gun opens freely when you do this then eliminating the end-shake will take care of the problem.

Find a gunsmith who understands S&W revolvers and have him either stretch the yoke or shim it. If the "gunsmith" gives you a blank stare run for the door and find someone else!

As far as extraction is concerned, simply clean the charge holes and the difficulty will go away!

 

[saveaux]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JII__KNLYY0[/ame]

Alk - I'm very glad that you suggested that. I've watched the above video on how to correct endshake, I think I should have no problem performing the repair based off what I saw. Could you recommend me a reference for finding out what size gap I should have with a feeler gauge?
If it's just a matter of correcting the play with a washer then I'd actually enjoy giving it a shot.

Is this normal in the light k-frames?
Would a 686 be suceptible to the same thing (totally different matter I know)?

 

[Alk8944]

Saveaux,

It depends, but using feeler gauges to determine end-shake is correct, assuming the forward travel of the cylinder is stopped by contacting the end of the yoke, and not the barrel breech. Determine this simply by pushing the cylinder all the way forward and checking the barrel-cylinder gap by holding the gun up to the light and making sure there is some gap open. Check this gap with the feeler gauge. Hold the cylinder forward while inserting the gauges until you find the smallest one that still allows you to feel some drag when withdrawing it. Then check maximum gap by holding the cylinder to the rear and again checking the B-C gap until you find the largest blade that does not drag. Subtract the first number from the second. Subtract .001 from the difference and what is left is the thickness of yoke bearings (shims) you need to reduce end-shake to ca. .001" without the cylinder dragging when closed.

Power Custom yoke bearings are available in .002" & .004" from Brownells. They come in sets of 10 for $16-20 per 10.

Don't worry about the barrel-cylinder gap, no matter what you have to reduce the end-shake to as small a figure as possible without the cylinder dragging. You will just have to live with whatever the B-C gap is, unless you want to pay $100 or so to have the barrel set back one turn and the gap re-adjusted. Current factory specification for the B-C gap is .004" to .012", so if you are anywhere in this area you are good.

 

[Dennis]

A stiff nylon brush will get the leather off of your extractor rod knurling.

 

[Gunsnwater]

Buy the ejector rod tool and use spent cases to lock the star or have a smith do it. This leather/ vice or vice-grips nonsense is going to screw the gun up. You have to use cases or dummies to lock the star or it is going to twist ghings up. Don't assume its clean either. Lift the star and clean it.

 

[Boogsawaste]

Buy the ejector rod tool and use spent cases to lock the star or have a smith do it. This leather/ vice or vice-grips nonsense is going to screw the gun up. You have to use cases or dummies to lock the star or it is going to twist ghings up. Don't assume its clean either. Lift the star and clean it.

Haven't screwed a single one up with that method. Have to be careful and not go ape on it but you can/will have to tighten the vise up to remove the rod as they can be very tight. Sometimes they look boogered up after but the leather just gets stuck in the knurling and needs to be cleaned with a brush. Spend shells are a MUST like I mentioned before too. Don't do it without some inserted in the cylinder. I usually fill it up. Of course your mileage may vary and anything can happen.

To be honest, I'd be very nervous about doing this to a collector type guns like yours. I'd think really hard about taking it to a smith because there's always a possibility of putting a scratch or worse.

I missed the part about pulling the cylinder back. Alk offered great advice.

 

[scooter123]

First, I have used a bit of worn out leather belt for years to clamp the ejector rod and never had a problem from doing that. However I don't "wrap" the ejector rod, I just fold the leather so that only one thickness of leather protects the knurling.

Second, make sure you actually have some measurable End Shake before doing anything to correct it. Because installing an end shake shim requires removing the ejector rod from the ejector star, something that should only done when actually necessary. Note, the thread between these parts is an EXTREMELY fine pitch and very tricky to re-assemble without cross threading the junction. Best trick I've found to get the thread properly started is to rotate the rod in the loosen direction while applying pressure and feeling for the very slight "snick" as the start of the male thread passes the start of the female thread. At that point reverse direction and the ejector rod should spin in with a twirl or three between thumb and forefinger. Obviously if you feel resistance after a turn or so it means you have the joint cross threaded and need to start over.

Third, the tip of the ejector rod is typically "fitted" to the center pin at the initial assembly. Sometimes this fit may have been a bit lacking and when this happens it can cause binding on opening the cylinder as described. The test for this fit is to press the center pin level with the extractor star and look at the opposite end of the ejector rod. What you should see is the center pin sitting slightly "proud" of the surrounding ejector rod. If you see the center pin is slightly recessed it means the ejector rod tip will need to be stoned down for a proper fit. BTW, this also means that some cold bluing will have to be applied to the tip to hide the bright ring of white metal that will result from fitting this part. I'll also note that mistakes were sometimes made during the Pinned and Recessed Era just like mistakes are sometimes made today.

 

[steelslaver]

I agree with fixing the endshake problem. Don't get it to tight though. You need about .002 endshake for the gun to run smooth. Another couple things you might look at are the tip of your extractor rod mechanism, Is the tip of the rod smooth and does the center pin come flush with the end when you press the latch forward? A little crud in the latch mech can cause it not to move all the way forward. Sometimes the end of the tube is a bit long and as the inner rod does not come flush the lug hangs up a bit. Make sure that the barrel lug piece is moving smoothly and not hanging up.

 

[saveaux]

-Original Poster here with a followup

Once again I would like to thank EVERYONE for their well thought out response's. I belong to other forum's and have never had as much technical help as I received here; this community is invaluable to S&W owners, yall help make the S&W name as legendary as it is!

So here's my findings -

Barrel gap with cylinder slid forward as much as I could get it to go:
.004 - Heavy Drag
.003 - Lite Drag

Barrel gap with cylinder slid rearward as much as I could get it to go:
.015 - Heavy Drag
.014 - Lite Drag

.014 minus .003 = .011

Alk you said that: Current factory specification for the B-C gap is .004" to .012", so if you are anywhere in this area you are good.

Since I am at .011 gap I am within the factory spec's. With this being said would it be worth trying to add some shims just to see if it fixes the problem?

What would YOU do as a gunsmith?

 

[Alk8944]

I would shim it to reduce end-shake and live with the B-C gap. If it was mine or cost wasn't a concern I would set the barrel back one turn and adjust the B-C gap to .004-.006".