Model 19 timing

[M1jhartman]

Hello all. This is my first post here on this forum and this seems to be a good place with a lot of good people. I look foward to interacting with you all.

Now down to the question at hand. My dad gave me a Model 19 for Christmas that seems to be in good shape, but as I was looking it over I found that there is a timing issue with the cylinder. I didn't have the heart to tell him. From the looks of it, I can cock the hammer and one out of every six times the cylinder isn't entirely in battery. I also think that at some point the trigger has been tuned. I was wondering how much is it going to cost to have a gunsmith fix the timing issue on this revolver and is this something that can be fixed at all.

I have heard that the model 19s are not as strong as the larger framed 357s like the 586 or 27. My plan, if I can get the timing fixed, is to feed this revolver 158 grain cast loads around 1000fps, as to avoid a steady diet of full power magnum loads. What do you guys think?

Thank you all for time. I hope hope you all had a Merry Christmas and a happy new year.

 

[john323]

P/M sent. John

 

[chief38]

Most revolver timing problems are usually corrected with an oversize or "tweaked" hand. Once in a blue, the star (ratchets) need to be replaced, but not as often as you might think.

The Model 19 IMHO is one of the best (classic) revolvers Smith ever made and WELL WORTH fixing!

IMHO the reason the M19 got the bad rap that it did back in the early 80's is that Smith was rolling out the new L Frame and they needed a good reason for people like us to buy them. The easiest way was to tell everybody that their guns (K Frame 357's) were going to fall apart - and for the most part it worked very well since the L Frames became a great success. Even though I have read articles in the gun magazines (the same ones that are trying to promote new gun sales) about M19's being weak, I have never personally seen one that went down. I have plenty of friends who own them as well and theirs are just fine too. Yes I will admit they are not as strong as the L or N Frames, but IMHO strong enough for many many years of good service.

That said, I own a few K Frame 357 Magnums including a M19 for many years now and have fired them with lots of 357's (mostly 158 grain) and they are still in perfect condition. There are no cracks, the timing is still fine and nothing has stretched. I own an L Frame too, and while it is a fine revolver, I just like the M19 better - more of a classic look. Even though I own a M586 6" I have still not really taken a liking to the full under lug barrel, and one day I will remove it and have it re-blued to look like the K frames.

I would NOT fire a whole lot of 125 grain Magnums out of the M19, but see no problem with the standard 158 grainers. Have the timing repaired and enjoy your Christmas gift; it is a fine example of a classic revolver.

Regards,
Chief38

 

[M1jhartman]

It's funny you mention the 125 grain loads. Dad also supplied me with two boxes of factory ammo 125 Remington JSPs. What is different about the 125s? Thanks.

 

[shottist]

M19 timing

Andy Horvath, Diagonal Rd. Gunshop, La Grange, Ohio. One of the best, if not the best Revolver Gun Smith in the USA. Excellent work at reasonable prices.
440-458-4369

 

[PH-2]

M1,

The lighter bullets in 357 magnum loads are, supposedly, hard on the forcing cones of the K frame revolvers. Some cracks in that area have been attributed to their use.
I am unconvinced that a revolver, maintained with no lead/powder fouling build-up, will exhibit the problem.
However, I, in the interest of not personally wishing to verify this as a weakness in any of my K frame magnums, shoot 158 gr. home-grown +P loads as a steady diet. If I use magnum rounds, the bullet weight is never less than a 158, as well.

Mike

 

[KJM]

It's funny you mention the 125 grain loads. Dad also supplied me with two boxes of factory ammo 125 Remington JSPs. What is different about the 125s? Thanks.

Use of Magnum Loads in S&W Model 19 and Other K-Frame Magnums

 

[M1jhartman]

Very interesting. I'll save the 125 for the 686. Thanks guys.

 

[Hearsedriver]

If the hand is replaced with one that is oversize, does it require any fitting? Kuhnhausen really doesnt get into it in his book.

 

[chief38]

Like other parts........
sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. What ever you do to make it fit and work properly, DO TO THE HAND AND NOT THE WINDOW THAT THE HAND MOVES UP & DOWN IN! The hand can be replaced, but the frame can not. Once you understand the mechanics of how it works, fitting the oversize hand is not a big job. Like most gun smithing, once you understand what you need to accomplish, and have the skills, proper tools and some patience, you will be fine. If you lack the confidence, mechanical ability or tools, seek out a competent Gun Smith.

Chief38

 

[Hearsedriver]

Thanks. I feel like I can handle it. Are the oversize hands slightly longer? Is that how they rotate the cylinder further so that it locks up?

 

[Nightowl]

Hands are thicker, not longer. Hands come in sizes from .093 to about .099. Standard size is is the smaller ones and oversize go about .095 and larger. To change hands, remove the old one and mike it. Depending on the delay in the timing, called "carry up", a new hand .001 pr .002 larger will usually be enough. The trick is to put in one large enough to correct the carry up, without being so large as to cause bind on the other ratchets. If there is binding, then the offending ratchets need to be filed to fit. This is a very tricky job, at least to me, and unless you have been taught, is not a job to tackle.

New hands can be ordered from Brownells or the factory.

 

[surveyor47]

I spoke with S&W a few days back about servicing one of my guns. I was told that S&W is DROPPING support of the K-frames and have sold most of their parts. If you want factory service on your gun, you had better pack it up and send it off to S&W immediately while they still have parts left.

According to S&W, parts and service for K-frames can henceforth be obtained through:
Gun & Gun Parts
413-732-9938

If you are not already babying your K, now is a good time to start. AVOID 125 grain 357s. If you split the forcing cone, you will likely be out of luck until you can find a used barrel. I will stick to 38 Specials with my Ks.

 

[Hearsedriver]

Thats going to make it difficult to honor thier lifetime warranty.

 

[M1jhartman]

My gun sounds like something may be binding up in there. Kinda like a spring that is twisted or something.

 

[surveyor47]

I believe that dropping support of the Ks is a way of forcing more people to buy guns with a hole in the frame. After having experienced an IL failure or two on a 642, I quit buying anything but pre-lock guns. If S&W thinks there are going to force me into an IL gun they are crazy. There is such a thing as Ruger and I believe right now their guns are in several respects superior to S&Ws current lineup. The reason I prefer new Rugers to new S&Ws starts with the absence of an internal lock! This should be a textbook lesson on how to lose your customer base.

 

[chief38]

VERY SAD!

The K was the tail that wagged the dog for many many years.

The good news is that they were well built, reliable and last a looong time before they need much. The minor repair parts like springs, screws and hands should be available through after market sellers for many years to come. While other parts may get a little more pricey, I suspect that they will be available on the secondary market for a long time as well.

Not trying to be overly optimistic here, but I hear tell that Colt is in the process of resurrecting their DS ll (basically a 357 "Dick Spl.) and is planning to make it WITHOUT any I/L. IF THIS HAPPENS....... I think it might force S&W to follow suit. Colt's Dick Special is on their D Frame which is between the J and the K frame in size, and holds 6 rounds. Now I am a dyed in the wool S&W aficionado, but if push came to shove and I needed a new carry gun I would buy a Colt DSll with NO I/L rather than the current line up of S&W's. HOPEFULLY, Smith will soon see the light.

Chief38

 

[tennexplorer]

Hands for the new IL guns are the same as for the prelock guns. S&W is still making Model 10s, 14s, 17,s and 18s.

 

[surveyor47]

If S&W is not discontinuing service on Ks, then why would they be telling customers that they are and that they have sold their parts inventory? I spoke to a Customer Service Representative a few months back and was told that it was the K-Magnums only, but when I spoke to them a few days back, it was all Ks- and more alarmingly - the parts inventory had been sold.

I suspect that where they are drawing the line is guns with forged parts rather than MIM. They would have to be absolutely nuts to discontinue service on current Ks with MIM internal parts. It may be that this is part of a larger move to discontinue service on ALL guns with forged parts and only service MIM guns.

 

[chief38]

From what I understand the parts inventory had been sold years ago. The person that bought it has already resold it to someone else. The good news is that there were many of these fine guns made and there are still many spare parts available for repairs. The difference is that now we have to search all over the Country for different parts instead of just making one phone call to the Factory. Oh well, that's progress they say.



Chief38