model 19 use of 38 special ammo

I've lost count of how many rounds of .38 Special hollow base wadcutter I've put through my Model 19, but it was numerous cases. Was getting commercially reloaded ammo dirt cheap back in the 1980s when police departments were still mainly using revolvers, and shot the heck out of the 19. I'm going to guess between 12K and 15K rounds, because I was going through 2K minimum a year for several years. And I have no idea how many rounds the previous owner put through it.

BIO.jpg


That's the 19 on my hip, from a year ago. Still going strong. Timing is still very good. Finish is getting worn.

Frankly I wouldn't worry about it with .38 Specials. Shoot the heck out of it.
 
Just remember to properly "clean" the chambers after shooting 38's in the 357. If not a carbon ring will develop and will keep 357 rounds from being fully inserted in the chambers. It will also make extraction very difficult. Many years ago when helping teach a Deputy Sheriff firearm training program, on the qualification shooting they had to use the ammo they would carry. over 50% of the students couldn't chamber a round of .357 and 75 % had difficulty extracting. It was always a good learning session when they came to that part. I have a Clymer "de-leading" reamer that was kept very busy at those times.
 
Welcome to the forum. I have put thousands of rounds thru S&W 357s. Most of the rounds have been 38 because I use them for practice and they are cheaper... I finish with 357 for muscle memory. I have never had a failure of the platform. I have had a jam due to a primer being pushed back against the firing pin area. Worrying about failure of the S&W 357s (when adequately cleaned and cared for) will give you an ulcer faster than they will ever fail. Enjoy!!
 
I've owned a dozen revolvers chambered for the 357 Magnum cartridge over the years, but I'll bet I haven't fired 100 rounds of full out magnum ammo in that time. I shoot mostly 38, and maybe a couple hundred lightly loaded 357 reloads.

I'm just punching holes in a piece of paper. They don't take a lot of killing.
 
Welcome to the forum John. A word of warning about these guys and gals: Sometimes they get a mean streak and start posting the most beautiful photos of S&W revolvers and other fine weapons. It makes you want to go out and buy one of each, at least it does me. Alas, my play money account is absolutely flat because of a recent trip to a local gun shop, and I blame it all on these guys. :-)

Have a blessed day,

Leon
 
Here's a response about the issue of cracking using 125 grain and lighter MAGNUM rounds right from the horses mouth. FYI, I am with the don't shoot too many 125 and less grain crowd. Too much to risk. My 66 gets 38's and hand loads below 357 starting loads but above 38+p occasionally. I have a gp100 if I want the blast something.

Dear Customer,

We would like to thank you for your e-mail and contacting Smith & Wesson / Thompson Center.

We no longer have barrels for that model. This is not true. Our firearms are manufactured to SAAMI specs and you can shoot magnum loads in that model.

If your barrel were to break, we would most likely offer you a replacement firearm at a discounted rate.

Thank You for choosing Smith & Wesson / Thompson Center products. Have a great day.
Smith&Wesson values its customers and we are happy to have served you today. Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require further assistance.

Regards, Steve
 
Last edited:
Let me add a bit more info . The police dept's back then reloaded their own ammo . They used mostly the 125 gr because of the public outcry of over penetration . Some even used a 110 gr and I have read even going as low as 90 to stop penetration .
The most common powder charge was 21 grs of W296 . That is the powder charge I use in 41 magnum , which is the much heavier " N " frame revolver when I want full magnum loads with a 210 gr jacketed bullet . That 21 gr load was just too much for the K frame . As long as you shoot what it was originally designed for , 158 gr or heavier , then shoot all the magnum loads you want . I have shoot so many 180 gr magnum loads thru a 19-5 I finally lost count . It's as tight today as the day I bought it . I don't hardly ever shoot 38's through my 357's .
 
I just got a gorgeous nickel model 19 and called S&W asking them a few questions and the guy told me that mainly any issues would be from really hot magnum loads. He did say to not use +p ammo, I assume he meant .357 +p? But anyway, I'm mainly going to use regular .38 special mainly when I shoot mine. Might do the occasional 158 gr .357, but mainly will stick to the .38
 
A .38 +P is......

A .38 +P is below the power level of a low end .357 cartridge. It won't hurt the gun. The similar model 10 .38 special could take a diet of +Ps forever. I know, I had one. The K frame S&Ws are nice strong guns. The 19 just doesn't like a steady diet of hot loads, especially those with light bullets. (125 gr.).
 
I agree with folks who say "Shoot the cartridge designated on the barrel." IE, .357 Mag if that's what the barrel says. I try to stay with 158 grain bullets, whether factory ammo or handloaded.

My handloads are usually mid-range. I am not trying to cook up something that will blow an elephant's head off. :D

I enjoy shooting .38 Specials in my Model 10s.

Of course I respect those who have different opinions.
 
Huh????????????

I just got a gorgeous nickel model 19 and called S&W asking them a few questions and the guy told me that mainly any issues would be from really hot magnum loads. He did say to not use +p ammo, I assume he meant .357 +p? But anyway, I'm mainly going to use regular .38 special mainly when I shoot mine. Might do the occasional 158 gr .357, but mainly will stick to the .38

He said not to use +P ammo with a model 19. I wrote below that I had a .38 special model 10 that could take +P until the cows came home??? Did he say +P+??? +P+ ammo has no standard and could be anything, even far above SAAMI specs.

There is not +P in a .357 magnum It was designed as a magnum cartridge more powerful than a .38 special of any variety.
 
For standard Target Shooting and Plinking standard .38 Specials of the 158 grain lead variety is what I shoot.

What I'd recommend for standard carry against all 2 legged animals is the Buffalo Bore .38 Special HEAVY LSWCHP-GC +P. Out of a 4 inch M19 you can expect around 1175 feet per second and around 21,000 cup. That's in the ball park of what a .357 Magnum 158 grain lead bullet will give you without the ultra high pressure (almost double). I have never heard of any M19 being damaged by the use of 158 grain lead +P 38 specials. The light weights cause most of the problems - legend says.

If you are walking in the woods in bear Country I would step up to the BB 180 grain LSWC soft cast .357's and would not give a hoot if the M19 developed a hairline crack after it thwarted off a Bear attack. A small price to pay for your life. That said, I would certainly not shoot the HEAVY Magnums on a regular basis, but that is what I carry when taking a K frame .357 into the woods. I have shot them out of my M65 with no ill effect but have kept them to a minimum. From a 4" bbl you will get just under 800 foot pounds of energy from that HEAVY Magnum load and it is certainly a stout load that I'd save for emergency purposes only.
 
Last edited:
I've lost count of how many rounds of .38 Special hollow base wadcutter I've put through my Model 19, but it was numerous cases. Was getting commercially reloaded ammo dirt cheap back in the 1980s when police departments were still mainly using revolvers, and shot the heck out of the 19. I'm going to guess between 12K and 15K rounds, because I was going through 2K minimum a year for several years. And I have no idea how many rounds the previous owner put through it.

BIO.jpg


That's the 19 on my hip, from a year ago. Still going strong. Timing is still very good. Finish is getting worn.

Frankly I wouldn't worry about it with .38 Specials. Shoot the heck out of it.
Brian on patrol.....
That looks like the " get the f out of here " picture. 😀
 
IIRC the Model 19 was designed using the old 158 grain .357 Magnum loads, a bit later the 125 grain and 110 grain loads became the fad and cracked forcing cones began to surface.

While not 100% sure of the technical reasons my caveman brain grasps it this way :
The heavier 158 grain bullet accelerated at a set speed where by the time it made the "jump" to the barrel the majority of gunpowder had already been burned,
I might be wrong but it would stand to reason that a lighter bullet would accelerate faster and make the "Jump" a bit sooner and those hot expanding gasses then cracked the Combat Magnums at its weakest spot in the 6 "O" clock position where the barrel is thinnest .

Im sure there is a bit more to it than that but this is just how my brain grasps it.
PS the .38 special at 800 fps is a very different round power and pressure wise than a .357 moving at 1300+ fps

It's a little more complicated than that with three separate factors coming into play.

1) The baseline conditions changed:

As someone noted above, when the .357 Magnum Model 19 was developed, the 158 gr LSWCHP was more or less the normal load and was launched via flake and extruded powders. At the same time, police departments almost universally practiced with .38 Special ammo and carried .357 magnum ammo. The end result was that the Model 19 was designed to be shot primarily with .38 Special, with only a small percentage of the total rounds fired over the life of the gun intended to be .357 Magnum.

However beginning in the late 1960s lawsuits started to be filed on the basis that officers were "undertrained" by the use of .38 Special in training, and a majority of police departments responded by using .357 Magnum for training. The end result was nearly 100% of the rounds fired by Model 19s were now full power .357 Magnum loads.

2) The 125 gr hollow point became popular as a law enforcement load.

Around the same time the training requirements change, so did the service load. The 125 gr load started to become the go to duty load for many law enforcement agencies, as it was very effective, and arguably had less recoil.

3) Around the same time Olin started producing ball powders for magnum pistol use.

Ball powders had been around since 1933 and started to see wide spread use in WWII in the .30 Carbine. In the early 1960s they became much more popular in part because they could be made from recycled WWII cannon powder being surplussed at the time. Ball powders were (and still are) inexpensive to make and a 10,000 pound production lot of ball powder can be produced in about 3 days compared to about 8 weeks for some extruded powders. The production lots can also be custom blended by a ballistician to deliver what ever burn rate characteristics the ammo maker wants.

In the late 1960's and early 1970s these powders started to become very common in .357 Magnum loads.

How Model 19s crack:

The Model 19 has a flat milled under the barrel to allow clearance for the crane and this creates a thin spot in the forcing cone, relative to the rest of the barrel. By itself, this doesn't cause any problems. However, once the forcing cone starts to erode, that erosion presents as small v shaped cuts in the inside of the forcing cone. Just like a crack in sheet metal, that sharp point at the bottom of the V creates a stress riser, and in the thinner section of the forcing cone at the 6 o'clock location, that v shaped cut and the resulting stress riser can cause a crack to form in the forcing cone all the way through to the outside of the barrel.

The "simple" explanation.

The 125 gr load took the blame primarily because it was the Model 19s used heavily by law enforcement agencies with near 100% round counts using .357 Magnum loads that started to encounter forcing cone cracks.

Since this was a new phenomenon, and the 125 gr load was the new load, people put 2 and 2 together and decided it was the 125 gr bullet causing the problem. Unfortunately it was an example of 2+2=5.

The "simple" explanation that has been around for decades to explain why more cracks were seen with 125 gr loads versus 158 gr loads was that the 125 gr bullet was shorter, and thus allowed gas to flow past the bullet and pre-heat the forcing cone before the shorter bullet arrived in the forcing cone and the "hot" forcing cone was then more subject to cracking.

That theory is "simple" but it won't survive contact with more than about 1 week of any credible thermodynamics course. To be brief, the millisecond or so between the arrival of the hot gas and the arrival of the bullet isn't enough time for the hot gas to transfer any significant heat to the forcing cone.

The not so simple explanation.

The root cause of the cracking in Model 19s is the erosion of the throat that then creates increased stress in the area of the forcing cone over the relief cut in the barrel.

The 125 gr bullet by itself does not cause more erosion. However in the big picture, the combination of the move to 125 gr loads, the move to the use of .357 Magnum for training and the switch to ball powders in magnum pistol loads all created the potential for much greater throat erosion.

Here's why:

1) Slow burning colloidal ball pistol powders have much heavier charges than flake pistol powders.

In many cases this is on the order of over a 100% increase. For example 9.5 grains of Unique was a max load for the .357 Mag with a 125 gr bullet in the early 1970s, compared to 17.2 grains of Win 630 or 21 grains of Win 296.

2) Contrary to popular belief, the slow burning colloidal ball pistol powders are not completely burned before the bullet exits the case.

If you've ever been pelted with bits of powder when shooting a .357 Magnum you're more than familiar with this phenomenon.

These much heavier powder charges also mean more mass flowing through the forcing cone - mass in the form of hot plasma mixed with partially burnt powder grains that are comparatively abrasive.

So now after the bullet has passed, you've got hot plasma flowing through the forcing cone carrying abrasive bits with it - twice as much of it, and a much higher percentage and mass of unburnt or partially burnt powder grains to provide the "grit" to go with the heat.

3) 125 gr bullets are lighter and use more powder than 158 gr bullets.

Using 296 as an example again, 21 grains would be used in a 125 gr load back in the day, but only 17 grains would be used in a 158 gr load in the same era. This represents a 20% reduction in mass and grit flowing through the forcing cone with a 158 gr bullet versus a 125 gr bullet.

In short:

The 125 gr "bullet" got the blame, because it was a new load and had come into more wide spread use shortly before cracked started to become an issue in the Model 19.

But it wasn't just the 125 gr bullet, and it had nothing to do with the length of the bullet. It was instead due to the increased erosion causes by the switch to much heavier charges of colloidal ball powders, which result in significantly more mass of hot plasma flowing through the forcing, cone, significantly more abrasion of the forcing cone, and in the case of the 125 gr bullet, even more mass flowing through the forcing cone with the 20% larger charges used relative to a 158 gr bullet.

Love your Model 19?

Stay with standard pressure .38 Special and .38 +P loads. Your Model 19 will last pretty much forever with standard pressure target loads and a steady diet of +P loads won't shorten it's life by any noticeable amount - particularly if you stay away from colloidal ball powders.

If you shoot .357 Magnum loads:

- Don't worry too much about the bullet weight (other than recognizing that maximum loads with lighter bullets use more powder and produce more erosion than heavier bullets).

- Avoid using slow burning colloidal ball powders like H110/Win 296, Win 630, etc.

- While it is technically a flattened spherical powder and not a colloidal ball powder, I'd also suggest staying away from 2400 as it's also a slow pistol powder that doesn't completely burn in the case, and will send a significant amount of gritty unburnt powder through the forcing cone.

- The same comment applies to Alliant's Power Pro 300-MP. It's a great .357 Magnum powder in a long barrel .357, but it's also a spherical ball powder and there's no free lunch.

- Choose a more moderate mid range load using a medium burning flake powder. It'll mean giving up some performance in a long barrel, but you won't lose anything in a short barrel and in some cases you'll get more velocity. Blue Dot is still a good choice and the faster Red Dot, Bullseye and Unique work as well as they ever did.

Be advised however that load data for some of them has been reduced over the years, so if you're using an old manual (which you often have to to find data on old powders) be sure to start with a moderate load and work up.

BE-86 looks interesting as it's in the Unique range for burn rate, but offers a lot more energy in a given charge weight.

Just keep in mind that shooting a Model 19 shouldn't be about squeezing maximum performance out of the .357 Magnum.
If you start having brass that sticks slightly in the chambers, you've probably gone too far and you'll want to back it down to the "non-stick" point.
 
Back
Top