Model 1902 2th model

[Thuer]

I did import this revolver from America. It took 6 months to get it in the Netherlands. I love the development of the M&P so this revolver could not miss in my collection. The fatter barrel made for the somewhat stronger .38 special wich was still a blackpowder cartridge is for me the reasson to own this revolver.

 

[Hondo44]

Another nice M&P, but appears to be a Model of 1902 - 1st Change being only a 4 screw model and still looks to have its original finish. It does have the larger thread size with thicker barrel shank area.

 

[H Richard]

Is it a 1902, or is it an 1899, 1st Mod M&P. What's the S/N?

 

[Muley Gil]

Is it a 1902, or is it an 1899, 1st Mod M&P. What's the S/N?

It has the barrel lug for the end of the ejector rod, so not a 1899.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Lovely mellow old m1902 2nd Model..!

Somehow the '02s are my favorite of the .38 Special or .32-20 Hand ejectors of that frame size.

DA is stronger than the 1905s, but it is smooth and nice regardless.

I have always felt the '02s were the high water mark for that line..!

I too prefer Black Powder for .38 Special, and I load my own for that.

Nicer recoil and report than Smokeless, and with a longer Barrel, will clock faster with the same Bullet weight, than the same off-the-shelf Standard Loading Loading in Smokeless.

 

[mikepriwer]

Henk

That is a very nice example. What is the serial number? It has the earlier trigger rebound mechanism, but the thicker barrel, so I think its a 1902 1st change - I assume the serial number to be less than 73250?

Its spooky talking about a 1902 2nd change, because the collector literature does not recognize such a designation. In reality, of course, the 1902 does not disappear, as the literature suggests. A 1905 1st change is a 1902 2nd change. That is just the way the cookie crumbles, because 1902 means round butt, and 1905 means square butt. Period.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[Oyeboteb]

Henk

That is a very nice example. What is the serial number? It has the earlier trigger rebound mechanism, but the thicker barrel, so I think its a 1902 1st change - I assume the serial number to be less than 73250?

Its spooky talking about a 1902 2nd change, because the collector literature does not recognize such a designation. In reality, of course, the 1902 does not disappear, as the literature suggests. A 1905 1st change is a 1902 2nd change. That is just the way the cookie crumbles, because 1902 means round butt, and 1905 means square butt. Period.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Ahhhhh...

I get goofed up with some of this.

The initial 1902 had the Barrel which did not swell where it meets the Frame.

The later 1902s the Barrel swells where it meets the Frame.

I had thought this was what the "change" was...for the
1902s.

 

[jebstuart]

Ahhhhh...

I get goofed up with some of this.

The initial 1902 had the Barrel which did not swell where it meets the Frame.

The later 1902s the Barrel swells where it meets the Frame.

I had thought this was what the "change" was...for the
1902s.

Just DO NOT have this conversation! You're only setting yourself up for pain, heartbreak and misery. This may never be settled and neither side shows any sign of movement. I'm getting what feels like flu symptoms just writing this. I need to lie down.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Just DO NOT have this conversation! You're only setting yourself up for pain, heartbreak and misery. This may never be settled and neither side shows any sign of movement. I'm getting what feels like flu symptoms just writing this. I need to lie down.

Ohhhhh...sorry!

Okay...

Anyway, I myself am pleased to have one of each example of the erstwhile 1902, as far as their differing Barrel shapes.

Both are just a joy to appreciate technically, and a joy to Shoot, and very accurate Revolvers.

 

[jebstuart]

Ohhhhh...sorry!

Okay...

Anyway, I myself am pleased to have one of each example of the erstwhile 1902, as far as their differing Barrel shapes.

Both are just a joy to appreciate technically, and a joy to Shoot, and very accurate Revolvers.

Congrats. Great revolvers. I only have one, a first change factory target, but wish I was as lucky as you with a no change too. I'll keep working on it.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Congrats. Great revolvers. I only have one, a first change factory target, but wish I was as lucky as you with a no change too. I'll keep working on it.

How nice!

Do you shoot it sometimes?

 

[jebstuart]

No I've never fired it. I don't shoot as much as I used to, I'm kinda getting up there in years and 38 is not my favorite. I have one 44 Spl. & one 455/45 Colt 2nd Mod. HE revolver; one Pinfire Shotgun and a Colt Lightweight Commander that I still shoot. That's about it. Well, I actually shoot two or three Pinfire Shotguns and a couple central fire Hammer Damascus Shotguns. I dearly love Damascus Hammer Guns.

How about you, have you shot your 1902's? I'm interested to know how you like them. I'm gonna try mine some day I hope.

Here's my latest 16 bore Pinfire, a Bartsch. I haven't fired this one or had the time to clean it up yet:

 

[Oyeboteb]

Hi jebstuart,

Yes indeed, I shoot my '02s.

They are my favorite K Frame.

Back in the mid 1980s, my every Day CCW was a low original Blue but mechanically crisp S & W m1902, and oddly enough, if I occasionally happen to dream at night about being in some sort of skirmish or Gunfight, that is the one I have in the dream.

Lovely old Shotgun! Good on you having fun with the old Pinfires!

 

[mikepriwer]

This may never be settled and neither side shows any sign of movement.

Its not that it "may" never be settled, but that it "will" never be settled, because there is no reasonable solution. In a way, it's like asking "Why is a duck?" That is not a question, and therefore there is no answer.

In this case, the problem is that the model of 1905 was introduced in the middle of the model of 1902 1st change, with the implicit understanding that, with the exception of the butt configuration, the two models would be identical. Furthermore, there was never any suggestion or implication that one or the other model would be discontinued.

(Its important to realize that the 1905 is indeed a new model, and not an engineering change.)

The next engineering change to come along was to the cylinder stop, which brought with it the addition of the 5th frame screw. The rational question is, for collectors, what engineering change is this ?

For the model of 1902 1st change, this is clearly its 2nd engineering change. But, for the model of 1905, its clearly the 1st change, because there were no previous engineering changes to the model of 1905.

Therein lies the problem. The reality is that engineering changes to the model of 1902 continued to be made, but the collectors, to avoid confusion, have chosen to not further document the 1902.

And that is why this never will be resolved.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[Thuer]

Thanks for your expliantion Mike . I love the development of the Military and Police.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Its not that it "may" never be settled, but that it "will" never be settled, because there is no reasonable solution. In a way, it's like asking "Why is a duck?" That is not a question, and therefore there is no answer.

In this case, the problem is that the model of 1905 was introduced in the middle of the model of 1902 1st change, with the implicit understanding that, with the exception of the butt configuration, the two models would be identical. Furthermore, there was never any suggestion or implication that one or the other model would be discontinued.

(Its important to realize that the 1905 is indeed a new model, and not an engineering change.)

The next engineering change to come along was to the cylinder stop, which brought with it the addition of the 5th frame screw. The rational question is, for collectors, what engineering change is this ?

For the model of 1902 1st change, this is clearly its 2nd engineering change. But, for the model of 1905, its clearly the 1st change, because there were no previous engineering changes to the model of 1905.

Therein lies the problem. The reality is that engineering changes to the model of 1902 continued to be made, but the collectors, to avoid confusion, have chosen to not further document the 1902.

And that is why this never will be resolved.

Regards, Mike Priwer

That is the answer then!

The last paragraph.

The Fork-in-the-Road marked by the introduction of the Square Butt, ought to honor both Butt types, if those then are the crucial distinguishing factors as for what is a Model 1902, and what is a Model 1905...with each of their engineering Changes being observed and noted as to allow identifying descriptions for examples made at any point in their respective production Histories.

Which really ought to be easy, since the '02's engineering changes would always be one step away from those of the '05, yes?

 

[mikepriwer]

It really ought to be easy, since the '02's engineering changes would always be one step away from those of the '05, yes?

The origin of the 'engineering change' designation is found in some documents prepared by Walter Roper, when he was running the service department. He needed a way to insure that guns being returned for service, would be fitted with the correct parts, when necessary. The engineering changes were the source of his problem.

So, he prepared a list, by serial number, that designated which parts were to be used for revolvers in those particular serial number brackets. Because the round butts (1902) and square butts (1905) were in the same serial number series, and were identical guns (except for butt configuration), his list was very simple and straight forward.

I am not sure that he put names on the serial number brackets. Whether he did or or not, there was no need for a name for each bracket.

The collectors picked up on the list, and turned it into a definition of engineering changes by serial number. It was this effort, on the part of the collectors, that causes the difficulty. Namely, its "not nice" to refer to the same gun with two different engineering changes, because the guns are not different (except for the butt configuration).

The way out of this difficulty, as chosen by the collectors, was to do away with one, or the other, of the two models - for the purpose of assigning engineering changes. And that is exactly what happened - the 1902 was dropped from all the engineering change designations, when the cylinder stop was redesigned and the 5th frame screw added. This, intentionally, coincided with the collectors introduction of the model of 1905, at serial number 62450 of the .38 series (it was actually introduced at serial number 58000 as a new model).

The answer to the question is that, yes, the difference is just one engineering change. I've always felt that this is not a palatable resolution - not for me, and probably not for anyone else. That doesn't change the problem, or make it go away. It just means that there is no answer - at least, not yet !

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[jebstuart]

.... oddly enough, if I occasionally happen to dream at night about being in some sort of skirmish or Gunfight, that is the one I have in the dream.

You must be living right. Every time I get into a "dream scrape", I, and only I am in slow motion, or I can never quite reach my firearm, or it's empty or jammed, or something else disastrous occurs. I've decided I must not be living right.

Same with sleep. The girlfriend can sleep through a cat. 5 hurricane no matter what's going on in life - rattles the china off the neighbors cupboard. I go through months long bouts of insomnia and walk around like a zombie if the least little thing goes awry. Such is life I suppose. Maybe walking the 1902 in the evenings is the answer - seems to work for you.

 

[Muley Gil]

Most cops, including me, have dreams where we need to use our firearms and they don't go off or worse, we hit the bad guys and nothing happens. The worse one I ever had was when I tried to stop a bad guy armed with a shotgun. My shots didn't affect him at all, but he shot me with the shotgun and I felt the pellets hit my skin.

I woke up with a start after that nightmare!

 

[jebstuart]

..The worse one I ever had was when I tried to stop a bad guy armed with a shotgun. My shots didn't affect him at all, but he shot me with the shotgun and I felt the pellets hit my skin.

I woke up with a start after that nightmare!

I can't imagine anything worse than looking down the muzzle (or muzzles) of a loaded shotgun. If you're close enough to look down them, well....that's a bad day. You have to be pretty dedicated to duty to suffer those dreams and the dangers that go with the job. Thanks for your service.

 

[Oyeboteb]

I used to have Dreams where indeed, whatever Hand Gun I had with me or was able to get to, it'd be empty, or a box of wrong Ammo next to it, Squib Rounds, mis fires, jam, etc...eeeesh!

Then, something changed...since then, the only two Guns I ever dream about having with me or on me, are the S & W m1902, and also sometime my Colt m1902 'Sporting' Model Automatic in .38 ACP.

Both have performed splendidly with never a disappointment in all such dreams since the latter 1980s when I started CCW-ing one or the other of those two.

Even though I have not CCW'd either of them now in a long long time...if I dream of being in a Skirmish or Gunfight or Rhubarb or whatever, it is almost always the S & W 1902 I have on me or else the '02 Colt 'Sporting' Model...and things always work out okay...

 

[jebstuart]

100% reliability is an absolute must in a dream gun and I'm gonna have to change mine out.

I need to figure out how to escape the clutches of Kay Francis to do it though, can't do without me for a second, poor thing!