Model 1905 Questions

[MacDaddy]

Hello everyone,
I am new to the forum and had a few questions about this revolver I picked up.

It was originally a blued gun but the owner in which I bought it from sent it off and had a nickel finish done, and added some pearl grips.
They also told me that it was a Model 1905.
I know due to the alterations done it has lost its collectors value, but I'd still like to know the round about year it was manufactured.

It's chambered for 32-20 Win., but is marked plainly 32-20 CTG. From what I've read it is a five screw gun, though I am new to S&Ws (this being my first), and I believe I read they began taking away a few of those screws after a certain date.

The serial number is in the 131XXX range.

I hope this is enough information to get a little help on this old piece.

Thanks in advance, and Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[JP@AK]

Hi and welcome to the S&W Forum.

It is a .32 Winchester Model, also known as a .32-20 Hand Ejector.

These were made from 1899 until c. 1929-30. Stayed in the catalog until 1940. In 1922, the caliber stamp on the barrel was changed to 32-20 CTG.

All .32-20 Hand Ejectors had five frame screws, except for the very early units, which only had four (they lacked the one in the front of the trigger guard until 1905). The five screw frames ended in 1956, long after the .32-20 was out of production.

Units with serial numbers in the 131000 range were shipping in 1926-27. That's as close as you will get without a letter from the SWHF.

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

Please post pictures. There are a number of us, including me, that love the old .32-20 cartridge.

 

[MacDaddy]

Thank you Jack for the information!

I was also wondering about which cartridges would be best to run in this revolver. I know from my own knowledge that the .32-20 was a rifle cartridge for the Winchester rifles. That being said is there any difference between the factory loads that are made today that would be better for the gun? Or would making handloads for this revolver be the best route?

Also, Muley when I figure out how to post an image I will! Technology and I aint hardly ever looked eye to eye haha.

 

[Hawg Rider]

1905 4th Change

Welcome to the Forum! You have what is referred to as a Model of 1905 4th Change in .32-20, just like mine. Mine is s/n 118705 and dates to the mid-1920's, but I haven't lettered it so I don't know the exact date. These are fun and accurate shooters. Handloading is fine, but if you just want to buy some factory ammo I would suggest shooting .32-20 Cowboy Action ammo in your revolver- it's a little softer shooting than some of the rifle hunting loads. Unfortunately, most .32-20 ammo is difficult to find right now. Enjoy!

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. What to call these K frames has always been confusing. Collectors normally use the names published in the Neal & Jinks great book on Smith & Wesson, but actually, by the mid-1920s the term "Model 1905" had been gone from the S&W catalogs for a few years. The company changed from the "year" model names to "Military & Police" and that took place somewhere around the start of WWI and the 1919 was the first catalog published at war's end showing this model. I have a 1925 catalog and am attaching pictures of the square and round butt models from the time of your revolver. Of course, both the 32-20 and the 38 Special calibers were made with the same K frame.

As for the caliber name, it seemed that S&W was anxious to get the name "Winchester" off their gun barrels and made two changes during production. From 1899 until 1913 they stamped 32 Winchester CTG on the barrel. From 1914 until 1922 the name was changed to 32 W.C.F. CTG, and from about 1922-23 until the end of production (1940) the name was changed once again to 32-20 CTG.

I have a few mid-1920s 32-20s and love the target model. I call them 32 Military & Police, 4th Change. I have shot all standard ammunition available from Remington and Winchester over the years as well as reload for target shooting. The loads currently available are mild and shoot under 800 fps out of a 6" barrel. Don't be concerned that Remington calls their 32-20 ammo "Express Rifle" the bullet is light and the velocity/pressure is low.

Images show the 1919 catalog K frame, the 1925 catalog, and a mid-1920s 32-20 M&P Target.

 

[JP@AK]

Thanks for your post, Gary. I completely agree that a K frame from the post-WWI period is a Military & Police, not a Model 1905.

I have several .32-20 HE revolvers and one of them is in its original box. That gun shipped in June, 1917. On the box bottom's end label, it is called a Hand Ejector 32 Winchester. On the end label of the box top, it says Square Butt. The inside label on the hinged box top has two languages, English and Spanish. The title on the English side says, "S&W .32 Hand Ejector Winchester, 4 inch." On the Spanish side, it translates to "S&W Model .32 Military & Police Winchester, Square Butt, 4 inch."

The 1905 language (and 1902 for the round butt) seems to have fallen out of use in 1915. That's interesting because that was also the year that the so-called "Fourth Change" was introduced (patent issued on December 29, 1914). So, it is fair to say that, from the factory nomenclature point of view, there never was any such thing as a "Model 1905 Fourth Change" regardless of what just about all "collector books" say.

Now, admittedly, the "this change, that change" language is probably never going away. But for the most part it is historically inaccurate. It has its usefulness from a collecting standpoint I suppose, but it just does not represent anything like S&W company nomenclature.

 

[DWalt]

I was also wondering about which cartridges would be best to run in this revolver. I know from my own knowledge that the .32-20 was a rifle cartridge for the Winchester rifles. That being said is there any difference between the factory loads that are made today that would be better for the gun? Or would making handloads for this revolver be the best route?

Anything you can find. Finding is the tough part. At one time, there was loaded a "Rifle Only" high velocity .32-20 cartridge which used a lightweight jacketed bullet at a higher velocity, and was intended for use only in stronger and more modern rifles, such as the Winchester 1892. They weren't actually dangerous to fire in revolvers, but there were apparently some instances of barrel splitting in the forcing cone area of barrels attributed to their use. The HV .32-20 rounds were easily identified by their headstamp, and also because they used a jacketed hollow point bullet. They have been out of production, at least by the major loaders, for well over 50 years, and about the only place they can be purchased today is on the ammunition collector market.

Assuming you are able to find any newer factory .32-20 ammo, be prepared for sticker shock. Most owners of .32-20 guns, and who shoot them much, are by necessity handloaders. .32-20 cases, bullets, and reloading dies are much more easily obtained than loaded ammunition.

"Now, admittedly, the "this change, that change" language is probably never going away. But for the most part it is historically inaccurate. It has its usefulness from a collecting standpoint I suppose, but it just does not represent anything like S&W company nomenclature."

There are those of us here that have taken that position for a long time. But many continue to this day to use the Model of 1905 descriptive terminology when the M&P in question is clearly NOT a Model of 1905 (those were only in production for less than 10 years). And even authoritative publications do it. Additionally, S&W never used the "change" term, which is another collector convention which will probably never die.

 

[mikepriwer]

Jack

You're right, in the context of the information in the catalogs: engineering changes are NEVER referenced in the catalogs. However, the factory did, internally, recognize and worry about the engineering changes, in so far as the service department was concerned. Under Walter Ropers guidance, they developed, and used, the scheme that, in a modified form, became the Neal & Jinks methodology. They simply used serial number, to identify what particular parts would be needed to repair a particular revolver. Butt configuration was unimportant, because the guns were otherwise identical.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[glowe]

You know that I have never ran across a catalog dated between 1914 and 1919? I have copies of just about every other year catalog except for the mid-1910s and the the WWII years. Assume that there were none printed then.

The target revolver I showed above was shipped in 1924 and was in a 32 Winchester box. The inside label was both English/Spanish, but still marked as a S&W Hand Ejector 32 Winchester. My assumption is that there not many shipped by the 1920s and there was most likely a large inventory of 32 Winchester boxes, that were used into the 1920s before they were gone.

 

[MacDaddy]

Thank you everyone for the amazing information and the help!

I love learning new things and history about firearms so I have thoroughly enjoyed all of yalls posts! I'll try to look around for some factory loads for the time being, but I do reload so I'll eventually get me a die set. Thank yall again!

I hope yall all have a wonderful Christmas, and Blessed New Year.

 

[JP@AK]

Gary

Your box is the same as mine from 1917. Mine is in a little bit (not much) better condition and doesn't have "Target" stamped on the label, since mine has fixed sights.

The neat thing about mine is the gun shipped with pearl stocks that are still on it. Inside the box, on the bottom, is a pasted label about the pearl stocks. That notice is also in both English and Spanish.

 

[JP@AK]

MacDaddy

At the gun show here in Palmer last weekend, I saw three boxes of .32-20 ammo on one table. The guy wanted $80 per box! They were still there when I left the show.

 

[hkcavalier]

There are a handful of modern boutique ammo outfits that make "rifle only" loads, but you'd have to seek them out; you're not going to find their stuff on the shelf at the local store.

Have fun with that M&P! Been looking for a .32-20 (particularly a Target) even though it would mean a new caliber to keep on hand.

 

[DWalt]

Likely the largest single market for .32-20 ammo are (or were) the Cowboy Action Shooters. At one time, back around 20 years ago when I was an active CAS, a fair number of shooters used .32-20 revolvers and rifles. In a way, I did also. I used a Ruger Blackhawk SA revolver in .30 Carbine, but I loaded .30 Carbine down to the .32-20 performance level, using lead bullets. It worked fine for CAS. I always thought that Ruger should have offered a second cylinder chambered for .32-20 in the Blackhawk. I have no idea if CAS remains as popular a sport today as it was back then. We had something like 300 shooters in the local group.

 

[Hondo44]

I always thought that Ruger should have offered a second cylinder chambered for .32-20 in the Blackhawk. I have no idea if CAS remains as popular a sport today as it was back then. We had something like 300 shooters in the local group.

They sort of did over years ago in 1988 for Buckeye Sports. It was a distributor exclusive Blackhawk convertible with two cyls., .32 H&R Mag and 32/20. A little over 5000 made.

 

[Truckman]

They sort of did over years ago in 1988 for Buckeye Sports. It was a distributor exclusive Blackhawk convertible with two cyls., .32 H&R Mag and 32/20. A little over 5000 made.

I recently owned a Ruger Buckeye Special in 10MM/.38-40...I can't remember what I traded it for, but I'm betting it was a Smith......Ben

 

[Sevens]

I want to try to say this as respectfully as I possibly can, because nearly EVERY post you fellows make on the subject is an absolute treat!

With that said, only once ever have I requested a S&W factory letter, that was in 1999 and and it for a 357xxx ummmm hahaha M&P circa 1921.

In three separate paragraphs, Mr. Jinks names the revolver, and in two of the three cases he specifically shows "Fourth Change."

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just pointing out what I see.

Let me add this little bit… kind of mind blowing how much phenomenal information that we collectively have on firearms in excess of 100 years old (this information finely curated by you folks specifically but in my area of passion, the S&W Performance Center semiautomatic pistols, guns that are 90-100 years newer seem to have as much mystery and in some cases, less information out and about.

I have a recurring day dream that there are a handful of retired craftsmen and gun artists who know all of this information and have very little idea how much some of us would love to get it all on record.

Thanks for what you passionate collectors do on these pages.

 

[JP@AK]

With that said, only once ever have I requested a S&W factory letter, that was in 1999 and and it for a 357xxx ummmm hahaha M&P circa 1921.

In three separate paragraphs, Mr. Jinks names the revolver, and in two of the three cases he specifically shows "Fourth Change."

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just pointing out what I see.

Yes. All that means is that Dr. Jinks, like many others, uses the "collector lingo" that was developed by Mr. Roper in the 1930s. He used it in his jointly authored book in the '40s, and still does. It isn't wrong, it is just a method to track the various engineering changes up to WWII. Our point in this thread was simply that it was concocted after the fact, and doesn't reflect the nomenclature used in company advertising over the years. As Mike noted, internally the company kept track of this stuff, but not publicly. It is of the same order of things as the "pre-model" language used by many. No one in 1953, for example, had any idea they had a "pre-Model 10." It was just an M&P.

Thanks for your observations.

 

[SS336]

In 1915 it was just an M&P.
I think collectors use all the embellishments to kind of keep them in in some chronological order.
Besides it sounds cooler.