Model 2 Duplicated serial numbers

[Aussie Collector]

I was looking at another model 2 for the collection and to help with justification I had a look at the variations to see if it’s of a type I don’t have. While looking at the types I noticed that one is numbered 10615 which is listed on “model2project” site as nickel where mine is blue.

Did S&W duplicate serial numbers during the manufacture of the model 2?

 

[H Richard]

There have been various times a s/n was duplicated by S&W, and (I think) it was most always inadvertent, not intentional.

I found out from Roy that one 5" K 38 (IL State Police) model that I have was a duplicate number, and the other gun with that number was shipped to Europe.

It is possible to have two different models with the same number as S&W often started off a new series at #1 and continued until discontinued.

 

[opoefc]

It's also possible that the info. in the Model 2 data base may have been erroneously reported. Ed.

 

[glowe]

All I know is that I would be trying to find out who entered that gun into the database, since you could have an opportunity to own the first known pair of same serial numbered guns!!

My guess is that no one else has ever put the same model gun, with the same serial numbers together - ever, and that would be a VERY significant pair.

 

[crossv]

I agree that glowe has the right idea here. I am reminded of an article Charlie Pate wrote in Man at Arms (January/February 1980) on the Model 3 First Model US where he reviews the shipping records from the National Archives which lists the serial numbers of 796 blue and 200 nickle revolvers by packing box. Charlie revisits this in an article in the summer 1990 S&W Collectors Journal. The issue is that in the 996 serial numbers listed in the original document in the National Archives there are 20 duplicate serial numbers. In the 1990 article Charlie gives details on 59 known blue and 13 nickle US Model 3's from the list and asks the question of what are the statistical odds of finding two actual revolvers with duplicated serial numbers. At the time, I built a Monte Carlo simulation on an (early) computer and convinced myself that the existing samples (which had no duplicates of course) were sufficient to say it was likely at about 75% confidence that all the errors were in the written list and that no actual duplicated revolvers would exist. My intention at the time was to write a followup article in S&WCA Journal, but I never got around to it.

The thing to note is that history seems to indicate a very good process to avoid duplicate numbers on the same model gun, but not only does the handwritten list from 1871 have at least 20 errors, but in the Man at Arms article a printed list in serial number order is given in addition to the facsimile handwritten lists. There are 9 errors in the printed list! I had to resolve all these to prepare the data for my Monte Carlo simulation. So written lists seem to be error prone, but like glowe, I think a genuine pair of the same model with duplicate serial numbers would be very collectable because somehow the factory had a pretty good process I think.

 

[Mcwsky09]

Perhaps it is from an alternate time line and bringing the two together could have catastrophic results.

 

[Aussie Collector]

Thanks
If no known examples are known of 2 with the same number then its most likely an error on the db.

If a picture of the other one appears here I will post a picture of mine also.
Cheers.

 

[glowe]

I would not dismiss the possibility so quickly. I seem to remember that the old database may have had owners/contributors names attached to the records??

Actually, it would surprise me if there were not rare pairs of duplicate serial numbers out there somewhere, especially the early models that totally relied on the factory foremen to keep track of all production records. With millions of S&Ws being made over the last two centuries, human error is not only possible, but almost assured.

I think you should contact the administration, just to satisfy yourself that the owner of that other S&W is either in the database or not. I know if I owned that gun, I would be very happy to unite it with it's twin.

 

[Aussie Collector]

I do find it very hard to believe that there was not a number duplication on a regular basis. Stamping numbers by hand, 10648, 10649, 10650, 10615, 10652, 10653. It is so easy to make a mistake or mix up the numbers.

 

[wedgeguns]

This one I can speak about: The project of collecting serial number begin in1960. I was using 4X5 cards. as time went on a pattern developed and the data evolved. by the early 1970s Enough data was collected to write an article which appeared in the SWCA Journal. At that time I had less then500 number twos in the data base. Early 1980 due to a brain injury I was incapacitated and turned over all the number two data to John Ottoman. John kept up the project until the middle 1990s when he gave all Number two information back to me. The data base was about 1200 at that time, In the late 1990 John moved too Singapore. At which time I purchased my first computer and discovered
excel we were off in running. The data base has about 3500 serial numbers. so much for the back ground info,
Now to answer the questions:
1.I have documented two duplicate serial number. How ever I have a file which contains fifty possible duplications The bulk of these our the same gun being reported One #2 shows up 7 different times thru different reporting sources. I do take notice when the finish shows up different or bbl. length Grip changes show up quite often and ocasionaly a plain gun will become engraved.
Methods of collection of data Website (which was started in 2002) seems to be the most consistent for new data Dealers an fellow collectors gun shows auction our other key source. It sort of go's down hill information gathered I have on match books napkins (most any thing you can write on, Every couple of weeks I go in search of any info on Model2s about 80% of these our duplicate to what is in the data base.
Its been along run and hopefully I can find some one take over the project by the end of the year. Hope this is of some help. Ron Curtis#20SWCA

 

[Aussie Collector]

Thanks for the info. I know the pain of serial numbers, a little of it anyway.

I have been collecting data also, for the model 41-1 for a few years now. I also scan the internet every few weeks looking for new entries. As the model 41-1 shares serial number with the other semi-autos I started collecting that data also. Not long after I started I noticed a couple of errors, numbers that didn’t appear correct. I now only accept model 41-1 serial numbers that I have photographs of, all others are marked “not confirmed”.

I can tell you with the laws in Australia serial numbers are recorded, mistakes are rife. A few guns I have purchased come with receipts that are wrong, a few are registered with a wrong number, I have reported the wrong number myself by mistake. Mixing 2 or more numbers in a string, using an assembly number, recording another guns number, your name it it can happen.

Thanks and good luck with your project.