Model 2 trigger and cyl stop pins

[DocBernard]

Okay, been a little frustrated with this Model 2 that's here. Are these pins tapered or peened in place? I need to remove the trigger because the sear edge is worn and won't keep the hammer back when cocked. Hammer side notch is crisp and sharp.



I cannot get either pin to budge after soaking in break-free and even lightly heating the frame.......



Not the one i'm dealing with but it's identical in appearance It appears it's a Model 2, 2-screw single action top break in .38 cal. that the cylinder # doesn't match frame number.


Serial #857XX

 

[gmborkovic]

Try from right to left removal. Just do not use a flat end punch. Buy or borrow a correct sized cupped end punch. And secure gun in a padded vise.
Remove grips.

 

[mmaher94087]

S&W pins are not tapered or peened. Those pins haven't moved in 100 years. More soaking, heat gun heat and a cupped 'starter' punch... Brownell's.

 

[BMur]

Rust

Soaking only impacts heavy sludge/gum from years of oil build up. It will not remedy solid rust. If the pins will not "Tap-out" then you are dealing with heavily rusted pins. The gun is obviously not in very good condition regarding remaining original finish so you have to weigh if it's worth going further with the repair vs what the antique is worth to you.
The next step is time consuming and tedious that involves a drill press and oversized pins installed to replace the rusted solid pins.

Murph

 

[mrcvs]

Try from right to left removal. Just do not use a flat end punch. Buy or borrow a correct sized cupped end punch. And secure gun in a padded vise.
Remove grips.

From my recent thread and recent research:

Removing a pin from a pre War Smith & Wesson pistol

Smith & Wesson installed pins right to left, so left to right removal would be the best approach.

 

[gmborkovic]

Got my brain backwards, thanks for correction.
If the holes are straight and the pins are not tapered, what is the difference? Mike

 

[mrcvs]

Got my brain backwards, thanks for correction.
If the holes are straight and the pins are not tapered, what is the difference? Mike

There really shouldn't be, but it makes more sense to reverse what was done originally.

 

[BMur]

Frame pins

I've found that the pin is slightly oversized and forms a pressed fit on the slightly undersized frame boss. The associated part moves freely on the pin since it is no less than 2 thousandth's oversized. That could be a trigger or bolt in this case. A left/right installation would require the pin to be tapered.

I'm still convinced it's a heavy rust issue.

How about a couple photos of the antique in question??

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

Heat, penetrating oil while warm and a starter punch with a well-supported frame and solid hammer hits. Tap, tap, tap is for engraver's hammers. Heat, oil and punch. Wash, rinse and repeat. The heat and cool with oil will break it loose. Patience is your friend.

 

[DocBernard]

How about a couple photos of the antique in question??
Murph

Like I said in my original post, I had to wait until I got off shift. I work a 24 on/48 off shift. EDIT: forgot to say this I have the pistol almost fully disassembled and was working at removing the trigger when the problem arose.

BMUr, it definitely in a state of disrepair. But this is going to be given back to the owner by the son as a restored gift. It's value is between 150-350 and the son knows this. So, I work with what I have. It's a family heirloom. And we know how deep sentiment can go.

The discussion now is does he want the poor condition nickel plating removed and the pistol blued or leave it as is. Replating will be an astronomical cost

But as requested:

 

[H Richard]

Kroil, or 50/50 transmission fluid and acetone and let the gun soak in it (covered) for several days.

 

[BMur]

Follow up to repair

Hey,
You're off work now!

Thank you for the additional photo. To the easy stuff first.

I feel the remaining finish is original nickel and should be left alone. I would never consider refinishing this piece. It will turn out just fine as is with the remaining finish intact.

Ok, I can clearly see that the internals were heavily rusted. See close up of your photo. Heavy, caked rust. This is exactly what is on those pins. It is not scum/oil build up.


Important: To evaluate the repair you must answer this question first: When moving the trigger back and forth and moving the bolt up and down? Does the pin move with the part or does the pin stay stationary?

This is monumental to the required repair. If the pin moves with the part, then the part is literally "Rusted solid" to the pin, which is the worst-case scenario. Soaking it will not help.

If the parts move freely and the pins stay stationary? Then you should be able to remove the pin with recommendations made by other forum members.

All my experience working with antiques I have never been able to remove rusted parts to pins of any kind. The worst is base pins rusted solid to the cylinder boss. They must be carefully drilled out. Pounding on the pin will only make it worse since you will damage the boss by crushing the pin.

The kind of heat needed to loosen a rusted part to pin or screw would require near "red hot" temp. which would damage the antique and destroy the finish.


Murph

 

[BMur]

Repair

If the parts are frozen to the pins I would repair them in place. I see no reason to spend the time to remove them. A good welder can add metal to the trigger in place well enough to get the action to function normally. You can also install a coil spring for the trigger without removing it.

I don't know why you even want to remove the bolt unless it is broken? If not I would not remove it.

I also re-read your post. You lightly heated the frame? That might have hardened the pins which would make drilling them out very difficult.

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

Clean as much grunge off with Kerosene, or your choice of solvent, and then soak it for two to three days in the 50/50 solution (Ed's Red), mentioned above. A light scrubbing with Fine Bronze Wool (ACE Hardware) will remove any surface rust and should free up those pins.

 

[DocBernard]

Thanks for the replies. As to the "lightly heating", I use a hot water bath, so no danger of messing with temper/hardness of either frame or pins. Followed by a dip in warm solvent/oil. I found this to be one of the safer ways to utilize heat on a frame. It's controlled, and no real worry over overheating or unequal heating like you get with a heat gun or flame source.

The pins are stationary in the frame, parts move freely. The sear surface of the trigger appears to be worn but need to remove it to verify and repair if needed. It's what's not allowing the hammer to stay cocked.

As to the finish, I am leaving that decision up to the client. I just gave him options. Since this model did come as blued as well as nickel, it could be a viable choice that would not really hurt the value, as long as it was a decent job. Due to the age and results I got with my hand ejector, I will use a ferrobronze method on it if the client decides he want the blueing route.