Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger

[nipster]

This no dash 6" model 28 I recently bought is turning into a real headache.

First and foremost, the cylinder will not open reliably. And in fact, by opening it, it appears something is rubbing on it and catching on the cylinders, causing a serious rub mark on the rear faces of the recessed cylinders.

This and a "gritty" action led me to completely tear down the gun and clean it. (everything except remove the extractor rod from the cylinder).

Took everything apart, this is the most filthy gun I have ever seen in my life. Literally sand in there. I had to clean every part, Q-tip the hell out of every hole and crevice including firing pin hole, hand hole, and the ejector lock hole (or whatever it's called). This is a 4 screw model, so it had the cylinder stop pin/spring hole (I like this much better than the newer ones).

At any rate, put everything back together and it still does the same thing, although action is much better. The cylinder failing to open is a real show stopper. I dont want to cause permanent damage to it if it's not already happened.

Also, the trigger in single action seems to be flawed. When cocking the hammer for single action, the trigger seems to come too far back, it's literally ALL the way back to the frame/grip. You literally breathe on the trigger and it releases. There is no trigger stop or cutout for one. Again, this is not right.

I think I now know why this was priced so low.

 

[m1gunner]

Bent ejector rod or bent yoke can cause what you describe with the opening problem.

The trigger position may be a result of someone doing a bad trigger job. Do you have another hammer and trigger you can swap into the gun to see if that fixes the "hair trigger"?

 

[TexinMaine]

I have a similar problem with my Model 66, it seems to catch a bit when opening the cylinder and I believe I have figured out the problem. Forgive me for not have to the correct terms but I am new to wheel guns. As you can see from the pic below there is a pin inside the revolver the when you push on the thumb latch it pushes in a pin on the cylinder allowing it to swing open. As you can see that pin does not quite come flush which would cause the pin on the cylinder to catch a bit. This part is located inside behind the hammer and the thumb latch on the outside attaches to it.

Now this is my 631 which opens very reliably and as you can see the pin seems to protrude more which would push the cylinder pin in further.

Well I hope this is helpful. Cheers.

Tex

 

[nipster]

Bent ejector rod or bent yoke can cause what you describe with the opening problem.

The trigger position may be a result of someone doing a bad trigger job. Do you have another hammer and trigger you can swap into the gun to see if that fixes the "hair trigger"?

What's interesting is that before I put the sideplate back on and attached the main spring, I moved the trigger and it appears to "catch" in the proper place, but after it's completely together it just isnt right.

I know it's back together right.

 

[scooter123]

What you are experiencing is the "previous owner blues". Funny how often we'll complain about a really tiny flaw on a new gun but a used gun full of sand is considered normal.

You've made a good start on correcting what's wrong with your 28, now to get down to the rest of the issues. That posting about the release pin stroking a touch short is one area to look at carefully. Another is at the opposite end of the ejector rod and this is a more common area of poor fitup. If you position the cylinder so that it's just a tick short of locking in place the recoil shield will hold the center pin in the ejector rod in it's forward position. Take a good close look at the end of the ejector rod and confirm that the center pin is standing a bit "proud" of the surrounding knurling at the tip. If it's recessed you'll have a "catch" when trying to open the cylinder just as you have described. The fix is VERY easy, you simply open the cylinder and stone or file the end of the ejector rod until the center pin will extend past the end of the ejector rod when you release the cylinder. Personally I prefer to use a stone so that I don't have to worry about the particles that might be produced.

Next up is the trigger. From what you are describing your Previous Owner stoned the trigger to what I call an Assist Angle. Basically the sear on the trigger has been ground to an angle that causes the single action sear on the hammer to "slide downhill". This will effectively lighten the single action trigger as you have observed. In addition in time it will also wear the tip of the single action sear on the hammer. Hopefully at this point your hammer hasn't been damaged, however that potential does exist and if you test for "pushoff" you'll greatly speed up that process of destroying the hammer.

What you need to do is stone the trigger back to the original Factory angle and cross your finger that it provides a lasting solution. BTW, with a case hardened trigger it's a bit of a gamble that you'll be able to stone the trigger again without breaking through the case hardened surface but that risk is perhaps only about 5-10% because small projections such as that on the trigger tend to through harden in the case hardening process that I expect that S&W used on your model 28. Following is a link to an excellent post that Gizamo put up about a stoning jig for the trigger. I recomend you look it over closely and order yourself a 6 inch Arkansas stone to do the work. BTW, last time I looked these stones were something like 60 dollars at Brownells so they aren't cheap.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/195061-tuning-jigs.html

 

[nipster]

For now, I am going to focus on the cylinder ejection issue. I can live with the trigger, and the fix seems to be a little more than I am comfortable with doing at this time considering my skillset.

That posting about the release pin stroking a touch short is one area to look at carefully.

In looking at the bolt (cylinder release assembly), it seems to be pretty much flush with the frame, although when I feel it, it feels "scaloped" like the center pin has worn a dish in it.

Another is at the opposite end of the ejector rod and this is a more common area of poor fitup. If you position the cylinder so that it's just a tick short of locking in place the recoil shield will hold the center pin in the ejector rod in it's forward position. Take a good close look at the end of the ejector rod and confirm that the center pin is standing a bit "proud" of the surrounding knurling at the tip.

It seem to be fully extended until you force it closed, when it then (as-designed) recesses as closed

If it's recessed you'll have a "catch" when trying to open the cylinder just as you have described. The fix is VERY easy, you simply open the cylinder and stone or file the end of the ejector rod until the center pin will extend past the end of the ejector rod when you release the cylinder. Personally I prefer to use a stone so that I don't have to worry about the particles that might be produced.

File which end, the end toward the barrel or the end toward the hammer?

I dont think I am fully understanding what you are asking.

 

[scooter123]

The ejector rod is basically a 2 part assembly with a few springs thrown in the mix. The outer tube is the part that has that knurled tip under the barrel and the center pin is retained by it's shape and spring loaded to push the bolt for the cylinder release to the rear when the cylinder is closed. When you push on that cylinder release the bolt shifts forward and presses on this center pin so that the rear is flush with the recoil shield and the front under the barrel presses the forward lock clear of the tubing part of the ejector rod. It's rather common for the center pins to be just a hair short and this will result in the center pin being a bit recessed in relation to the surrounding ejector rod tube when that center pin is pressed all the way forward. If you park the cylinder in a slightly open position so that you can clearly see the end of the ejector rod what you should see is that the center pin is slightly higher than the surrounding tube. If it's not, you file or stone that tube until it does project slightly when fully pressed forward.

What all this means is that you may need to stone the end under the barrel. Two points. One is that the center pin only needs to stand proud of the ejector rod by 0.002 to 0.006 inch. While 0.010 inch won't cause any harm you really don't need to go at it with a grinder. Second, material removed cannot easily be put back. So, put on some readers and look closely to confirm a need to do any work in this area and work slowly until you achieve a smooth release of the cylinder.

 

[nipster]

^ Ok, so by shortening the end of the ejector rod tube, the stay pin at the end of the barrel underlug has less to "catch" on and will result in an easier ejection?

I mean right now, I really have to pull on the cylinder to eject it.

 

[scooter123]

Lets clarify our termonology a bit here. The way interpret your original post that you are having problems with OPENING the cylinder. Now you are referring to EJECTING the cylinder, which is pushing on the ejector rod to EJECT empty casings from the cylinder.

If you are having problems OPENING the cylinder the steps for correcting this are as follows. First, make sure the Ejector Rod is screwed in tight. It's a LEFT Hand Thread so you'll want to test in the unscrew direction for a right hand thread. If it's loose then be specific about this and we'll walk you through how to tighten it properly. Second thing to look at is the barrel end of the ejector rod with the cylinder positioned nearly closed. If you find the center pin is recessed you need to do a bit of fitting as described. Third area to look at is the Cylinder Release Bolt, which is that push/pull pin in the center of the recoil shield.

Now, if you are having issues with EJECTING empty casings that's a different ball of wax. Causes for problems in Ejection are mainly due to cleanliness of the cylinder, poorly machined chambers in the cylinder, or defects in the cylinder due to firing over pressure ammunition. Because it consts only time and a bit of money for cleaning materials you start by correcting this by thoroughly cleaning each chamber. If you still have problems it would probably be best to either contact S&W or see a local gunsmith who knows how to work on S&W revolvers.

 

[nipster]

Opening the cylinder, not using the ejector rod.

I am gonna post some pics here in a minute.

 

[m1gunner]

You stated the rear of the cylinder was dragging on the blast shield on opening. An overly long ejector rod tube will not cause this.

 

[nipster]

Here is a shot of the cylinder with the mars highlighted.

 

[nipster]

You stated the rear of the cylinder was dragging on the blast shield on opening. An overly long ejector rod tube will not cause this.

What does?

 

[scooter123]

Those marks on the rear of the cylinder appear to be firing pin strikes. How this could be possible is a bit baffling but I suppose that if Bubba removed the hand or hand spring it might be possible.

From the condition of the rear of the cylinder it appears that we aren't talking about a 98% condition collectable. If this is a routine shooter I would use a stone to remove any high spots, that should resolve any drag issues caused by this.

 

[nipster]

It's possible it was out of timing at one point, but not now. I checked every cylinder at full lockup after cleaning/reassembly. All parts present too. I didnt think it could be those mars catching apon ejection considering the ejector star sticks out so much farther than them.

 

[ikor]

If this is a 4 screw gun, the ejector rod may have a right hand thread as they only changed to left hand in 1960, then went to the 3 screw M28-2 in 1961.

Can you get a picture of the recoil shield so we can see if the center pin is not being pushed far enough forward...or perhaps once was not...and has cut a trough there? I suspect your problem is somewhere between the front locking lug on the barrel, the center pin, and the bolt. I doubt those marks on the cylinder are the cause of this. No doubt this gun has been tinkered with.

 

[scooter123]

You have to remember the recoil shield is recessed to provide clearance for the extractor. If you do have high spots that are dragging on the recoil shield they should be leaving clear evidence of this by leaving scratches. I'm another who would like to see a picture of the recoil shield. At the same time position the cylinder so that it's just shy of the forward lock and take a picture of the end of the ejector rod.

 

[nipster]

Ok, will take pictures this evening when I get home. If you want, make a list of things you think may be beneficial for me to take pictures of and I will knock it out.

If you want, I can even disassemble the internals again and take pictures of the trigger and hammer in reference to the single action trigger issue I previously mentioned. Dont know if you can get the info you need from that.

 

[nipster]

If I didnt mention this before, I really appreciate all the help on this. This board is most helpful.

 

[ikor]

Nah man...thank YOU for giving us a brain teaser! _