Model 29 blow up

[bigfatty]

Come to think of it, I also seem to recall it usually be Fiocchi when something like this happens. Dunno why ... I've used a lot of it, and I think it's pretty good ammo.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

Looks like you had a squib load. Perhaps acerbated by the barrel being over torqued. The missing pieces are probably some where above flying formation with the International Space Station.

If it were me, before I sent it back for replacement, I'd keep the grips and rear sight assembly. "Mementos" of the original gun. Smith will probably pitch them anyway.

 

[BJ343]

The reason is they are carrying their ammo in mags and carriers not leaving it lying around on a bench for the sun to beat on. The sun shining on a box of ammo can raise the pressure considerably. That's what happened to the gun and ammo we were using. Because it was being used for an advertising gimic leading into the Shot Show. The temperature was high and the gun and ammo were being photographed.

I understand the Mil Spec powders are much more temperature stable, our local power co ADi that makes powders for Hodgden, make all sorts of wild claims about how insensitive their powders are...i fired a lot of 5.56 and 7.62 that has been baked in the sun all day never an issue.......assuming the powder was sensitive to being warmed up...will another 50ft/sec extra MV really blow up a gun...I dont know

 

[mtelkhntr]

In picture 1 it's hard for me to see but is that rust on the bottom of the barrel where it split or dirt from being blown off and landing there? If it's rust, that's where the failure started.

 

[k22fan]

The discussion of pressure increase caused by sun baked cartridges is off topic in this case. Over pressure cartridges bulge cylinders before doing any damage to the frame or barrel. The O.P.'s cylinder appears to be good as new. In 6 shot S&Ws the first distortion is dimpling the chamber walls under the cylinder stop notches. I'm curious if the cylinder even has that damage.

 

[dirtybarry]

The discussion of pressure increase caused by sun baked cartridges is off topic in this case. Over pressure cartridges bulge cylinders before doing any damage to the frame or barrel. The O.P.'s cylinder appears to be good as new. In 6 shot S&Ws the first distortion is dimpling the chamber walls under the cylinder stop notches. I'm curious if the cylinder even has that damage.

I've been around this block with mine and my cylinder looks and measures the same as the one in my 629. I think there is a bad batch of this model. But getting S&W to accept that has been problematic to this point.

 

[Muss Muggins]

The reason is they are carrying their ammo in mags and carriers not leaving it lying around on a bench for the sun to beat on. The sun shining on a box of ammo can raise the pressure considerably. That's what happened to the gun and ammo we were using. Because it was being used for an advertising gimic leading into the Shot Show. The temperature was high and the gun and ammo were being photographed. I fired a couple of the experimental Glaser safety slugs which were known to be higher pressure than normal and had black tips instead of the blue. The pistol was a Devel conversion on a model 39, similar to what a 3913 would be today. It blew. The grips shattered, the barrel chamber area raised up in the ejection port. The magazine bulged through where the grips used to be. I got some cuts on my hand and it was very sore. The end result by both Devel and Glaser was the heat and sun raised the pressure over the threshold. The ambient temperature was not enough by itself but the sun beating down on the nickel cased ammo was enough. Just as it would raise the temperature in a car high enough to kill a dog or child, it will raise the pressure in the casings enough to blow the pistol.

I call that which makes grass green. So, a fiber box gets hotter than a metal magazine? Set both in the sun, or in your car, and grab each. See which one you set down first. Notwithstanding the starting pressure, the pressure required to push a bullet from a case remains the same. When that pressure is achieved, the bullet will exit the case without further issue. If the bullet is crimped too tight, the round may explode, but that has nothing to do with the starting pressure. Your comparison to a hot car is invalid, as cars don't over pressurize and force the child out the window . . .

 

[Dave Workman]

I concur with others who advise keeping some ammo and having it tested. Now, did you check the empties? Any sign of high pressure? Flat or cratered primer? Split case? The damage looks awfully like a blocked bore AND hot load. It would not be the first time someone got a bad round, however, if the ammo was sitting in the hot sun, all bets are off. As others have noted, hot ammo can be real trouble no matter who manufactured it. Glad you still have your fingers.

 

[hkcavalier]

Looks like classic squib + another shot fired, though the OP stated the first shot felt fine. Squibs won't feel "fine".

Was anything left in the barrel i.e. a bullet or two?

 

[flagman1776]

A bore obstruction should be pretty easy to spot as it's probaby still in the bore.
I would set up & take a bunch of really clear pictures of the gun, ammo, ammo box showing lot number.
No one can say how long it will take to resolve this... or the twists & turns it will take.

 

[handejector]

It would be interesting to see pics of the fired primers.
Do you have the case from the fatal round separated from the rest?
Any odd signs there?

More pics taken in more even light would be nice to see.

POSSIBLE scenario-
It may be the result of the "perfect storm".
We do see a high incidence of Fiocchi ammo being involved in such incidents.
That said, consider this-
We've seen numerous frames crack on the bottom side of the barrel where the walls of the barrel socket are thinnest. It usually happens on aluminum frames, but a few steel frames have been known to crack there.
Now, IF your frame had cracked there, perhaps only partially, it may have allowed the barrel to be overstressed at the rear from the decreased support. Over several rounds, it may have stretched and cracked also.
IF the barrel was over torqued, it may also have been overstressed at the corner of the barrel stub where the threaded stub meets the square shoulder that butts against the frame. The barrel may have been slightly stretched there, and maybe even slightly cracked on the side that separated.
IF there was then a hot (as in overloaded) round fired, both barrel and frame may have simply broken as the pressure curve rose. The bullet hitting the forcing cone may have initiated the final complete fracture, and the gas pressure behind the bullet continued the peeling. Note that both barrel and frame are broken at that bottom center point.

Glad you weren't hurt.

 

[SandSpider]

The ambient temperature was not enough by itself but the sun beating down on the nickel cased ammo was enough. Just as it would raise the temperature in a car high enough to kill a dog or child, it will raise the pressure in the casings enough to blow the pistol.

What would be the physical or chemical explanation for the raised pressure? Does the powder burn differently?

 

[k22fan]

A bore obstruction should be pretty easy to spot as it's probaby still in the bore. [...]

When a second bullet is fired into a bullet left by a squib most of the time both leave the barrel. Typically what remains is a bulge or ring about where the rear of the obstruction was. Yes, I have seen the Python barrel filled nearly completely with bullets from low pressure .38 cartridges but the rarity of that is what made them great show and tell displays.

I would like to know if the case head or primer show signs of excess pressure, if the chamber side walls are expanded out into the cylinder stop notches or if there is an annular ring left from a bore obstruction. Absent any of those things it looks like the failure is S&W's fault.

 

[BigBill]

I say the barrel was over torqued which caused a hair line fracture why else would the frame blow out. Theory.

 

[pittpa]

Smith & Wesson may ask for you to send the remainder of the ammo for them to check it out. You cannot send ammo. it.

I sent Ammo back to Speer for testing a couple years ago. Don't recall any hassle. Box was labeled properly.

 

[John R]

Do you know the bore diameter?



-------------------

At this point, I'd say extra Large.

 

[Dave Lively]

I sent Ammo back to Speer for testing a couple years ago. Don't recall any hassle. Box was labeled properly.

I use a lot of Speer Lawman ammo in my semi autos. Their 115 grain 9mm load seems hotter than others but not +P. What was the issue with the ammo you wanted it tested for?

 

[Dave Lively]

From what you described it looks like a manufacturing defect to me.

In 30 years of shooting I have only had one squib load and seen a few others. The one I had was when I was shooting a friend's 45-70 lever action with his light handloads. The primer had enough power to drive bullet several inches into the barrel but not ignite the small amount of powder in the huge case. All I felt was a click which is similar to the squib loads I have seen others fire. With the cylinder gap your 29 would make some noise but nothing that would be confused with a normal round.

If you still have the fired cases can you post pictures of them? A round strong enough to blow up a gun should have a flattened primer. Be sure to send pictures of the cases to S&W.

If you were shooting at paper did you notice anything unusual in the target?

 

[MichiganScott]

Seems everyone is zoning in on a high pressure cartridge. High pressure cartridges blow out the cylinder, not the barrel.

There is a possibility of a squib, but squib loads with another round shot behind it usually bulge the barrel. The OP's pictures look like the barrel shattered and he said the previous round felt normal. Barrel damage from a squib and then a full power load being fired usually gives the barrel a peeled banana appearance along the grooves.

That leaves a metallurgical issue. The edges where the barrel is damaged will have a certain appearance under a high power microscope. Handejector gives a potential scenario for how this happened.

Most of the advice given about how to go about notifying S&W and Fiocchi without losing control of the ammunition and pistol remains is spot on.

 

[chief38]

Fiocchi ammo is a quite a bit hotter than its American counterparts - at least that has always been my personal experience.

You could have gotten sand from the Desert into the barrel, could have had a squib get stuck in barrel and the following shot blew it up, or you could have had a double charged round.

There might also have been a problem with the Revolver such as poor timing, a fine crack that you never noticed - since you stated you only cleaned it two times or maybe even a sub-standard piece of metal was used to make gun.

More than likely the Ammo Maker will blame the Gun maker and the Gun Maker will blame the Ammo Maker. Hope everything works out for you and glad to hear you are OK.

 

[retiredbadge8091]

Squib load. My nephew was shooting with a friend the other day when the friend experienced a squib load. The shooter didn't realize the ammo failure and luckily my nephew immediately called for a cease fire, preventing a similar catastrophe. For the record they were shooting factory loads of Winchester White Box ammo.

 

[Granite Stater]

I had a squib load with factory Winchester duty ammo. I was shooting rapid fire and did not notice it but luckily the next round would not chamber as the squib was still partially in the chamber. I have fired allot of ammo in my life and this was the only squib I ever had.

 

[Rick_A]

Based on my dealings with S&W about my 29-10 that failed in a very similar manner, ( http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/446602-29-10-durability.html) let me give you a heads up as to what you can expect. S&W will say that their guns are perfect and any failures are the fault of the ammunition. And that you will have to pursue the ammunition company for damages. It's a total weasel move.

There was no barrel obstruction from a squib load in mine either. The first 2 rounds made 2 separate holes in the target paper and even the 1 that did it in made it's own hole.

If I can be of any assistance, please don't hesitate to contact me. I've got pictures, S&W contact info and every email related.

I'm glad you're OK. I know exactly how freaky this is.

-Barry

By your own admission you used reloaded ammunition. Most manufacturers will void a warranty for reload use.

The OP should fare better.

 

[dirtybarry]

By your own admission you used reloaded ammunition. Most manufacturers will void a warranty for reload use.

The OP should fare better.

I doubt it. S&W will deny any responsibility and Fiocchi will say that their ammo is within SAAMI specs leaving the OP up the creek.

As far as my reloaded ammunition is concerned, my hand built race engines made more power and lasted longer than factory crate motors. I have absolute faith in my workmanship.

Further since I have no faith or trust left for S&W, the brand new 629 that I bought while waiting for an answer about the 29-10 has had exactly 1 factory round through it. The one they fire at the factory. The other 2324 (so far) rounds that I have put through it in the last 6 weeks have all been my reloads. I've got a thread going on the Canadian Gun Nutz forum about how long a 629 will last.

 

[Pondoro]

Situations like this are very difficult. I work in reliability/services/repair with industrial items. The engineers at S&W are sure they designed a robust system. Manufacturing is sure they made it right. Fiocchi is sure their ammo is OK. The gun and ammo have passed out of their control.

If this was an aerospace component (Commercial or Military) that failed in a manner that implied safety could be affected then millions of dollars might be spent on this one failed component. Scanning Electron microscopes would look at the failure site, operators would be questioned, other ammo from the same lots would be tested. But if Smith did this for every gun blow up they would be bankrupt. So it is easy to call Smith or Fiocchi out as the bad guys. Clearly something was messed up. But exactly who or what is not evident and may never be evident even after an expensive investigation.

Handloads bring a world of new variables into the fray. Someone made the bullet, someone else made the powder, someone made the primer, the case has a history that might be known or might not be known. The powder may be 30 years old and the powder company may have changed hands three times. Powder and primers can get mixed up in home storage. Even here on the interweb if someone admits their gun malfunction involves a handload 15 experts will immediately jump in and say, "The handload IS at fault." How do you think Smith and Wesson's lawyers feel about the handload?

I'm not blaming the OP, who used fatory ammo, nor anyone whose gun blew up with a handload. I handload myself. I am simply pointing out the problems faced by companies whose gun fails in the field.It is too easy to call them corrupt, but they are in a bad position.

 

[jhcii]

.44 Magnum Sandium and Titanium Blew up in my hand....

I was shooting the .44 Magnum PD revolver w/4" barrel and compensator ports and the same thing happened in 2002. I took it back to Tucson where I got it and SW ended up replacing it.

I consider the 29-10 to be one tough cookie but hearing about this reminded me of my own similar experience with Titanium weight.

I was shooting factory Remington JSPs.

I know the experience!

 

[Cal44]

What would be the physical or chemical explanation for the raised pressure? Does the powder burn differently?

Most chemical reactions occur faster at higher temperatures.

Therefore the peak pressure would be higher.

Also as a engineer (although electrical rather than a mechanical or materials engineer) the possibility of a flaw in the metal of the barrel also is possible. A micro crack or flaw might hold up for a while -- even several hundred rounds -- and then let go.

A friend had a Chevy suburban for nearly a year with no problems, and then one day the rear axle sheered off for no obvious reason. Just ordinary driving on a dirt road. I helped him fix it and the over an inch in diameter axle just broke in the middle. That axle must have had a flaw from the day it was made.

 

[BigBill]

Metallurgy could be a problem. In the test lab we found many problems were the moulton metal wasn't mixed enough before it was poured. It could be a unseen fracture from being too cold when it was forged.

The cracks surface will have two different colors in the crack. The first crack will be darker in color than the newer final crack. A premature crack than the final crack.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

Very glad that you are unhurt! The picture of a Smith Revolver in that condition saddens me. Metallurgy defects happen, and this looks to be one. I also hope that you will post S&W's response for us to see. Sorry that it happened.

 

[BigBill]

I wonder what ammo or load s&w uses for proof testing handguns?