dirtybarry
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It would be interesting to find out indeed.
The ID round that came with mine was a Winchester that looked just like any other.
Model 29 blow up
- Thread starter Campin Buddy
- Start date
It would be interesting to find out indeed.
The ID round that came with mine was a Winchester that looked just like any other.
flagman1776
Member
I never had a squib load with my reloads. I had one with Dept issue practice ammo in a very intense live fire drill... Lodged in the forcing cone & tied up the cylinder. I ended up as a "causality" & could only take cover behind a wheel while my partner fought off those dastardly turning targets. BUGs were not permitted in the drill.
I would rathered have had someone else be learning tool. After that I added a simple range rod to my duty gear...
I would rathered have had someone else be learning tool. After that I added a simple range rod to my duty gear...
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If it was a squib load caused the problem, would there be a visible ring or a bulge inside the barrel parts showing the pressure spike at that point?
I don't know about the squib theory. As we know, the .44 mag. is a round with significant recoil and blast. I would think any round that didn't have the pressure to push a bullet through the barrel would feel and sound significantly different.
That sad part is that analyzing the remaining ammo in all likelihood will be be pointless, in that if it was a defective round, the odds are greatly against there being a similar round in that box. The casings in the cylinder at the time it happened might be of some help.
IAE, I agree with those who state that Fiocchi will blame S&W and S&W will blame Fiocchi. That being said, if you were using factory ammo, S&W needs to honor its warranty, and go after Fiocchi if it believes their ammo caused the damage. Keep on S&W if they don't.
IAE, I agree with those who state that Fiocchi will blame S&W and S&W will blame Fiocchi. That being said, if you were using factory ammo, S&W needs to honor its warranty, and go after Fiocchi if it believes their ammo caused the damage. Keep on S&W if they don't.
Tom_R
Member
I am just glad you weren't hurt.
Get yourself $5 in Lotto Tickets before you do anything else.
You shot factory ammo through an unmodified new gun.
Someone owes you a new gun.
Hopefully between S&W and Fiochi, you will get funds for a replacement.
If you bought this from a LGS, bring it back there with the ammo and tell the owner of the LGS that you want their S&W rep to look at this, and to talk to you.
DO NOT send all the ammo back to S&W or Fiochi.
Get yourself $5 in Lotto Tickets before you do anything else.
You shot factory ammo through an unmodified new gun.
Someone owes you a new gun.
Hopefully between S&W and Fiochi, you will get funds for a replacement.
If you bought this from a LGS, bring it back there with the ammo and tell the owner of the LGS that you want their S&W rep to look at this, and to talk to you.
DO NOT send all the ammo back to S&W or Fiochi.
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I don't see how it could be anything other than a defective gun. The cylinder and top strap are intact.
Any overpressure strong enough to blow out the left side like that should have blown the top strap off I would think. Or at least the right side too. The damage is so asymmetrical left to right at the forcing cone.
Any overpressure strong enough to blow out the left side like that should have blown the top strap off I would think. Or at least the right side too. The damage is so asymmetrical left to right at the forcing cone.
I've got $5 that says they just use a primed case, otherwise the "microstamp" crowd would be clamoring for the bullet fired during function testing to further ID the pistol. Of course, who says they're not being held in some database somewhere . . .
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I would not send the gun to S&W. I would send photos and ask them what they intend to do. I have heard of people sending the guns back in these cases and they get nothing and the evidence you need is now in the hands of the entity you might need to sue.
Bad ammo is out. The cylinder would rupture not the frame/barrel.
Obstruction is highly unlikely. Even a bullet in the bore only results in a bulge, not a catastrophic failure like this.
Factory ammo in the hot sun is a zero possibility. Factory ammo is not loaded so hot that being in warm weather would make the load unsafe.
I am certain the gun failed. I have seen and heard of many split frames and barrels since S&W eliminated the pin. They have had a lot of trouble installing crush fit barrels. I've seen frames split right through the barrel threads and whole barrels blown off the frames.
If all you want is a replacement gun they should be happy to send you one. I would in their place. But take nothing for granted.
Bad ammo is out. The cylinder would rupture not the frame/barrel.
Obstruction is highly unlikely. Even a bullet in the bore only results in a bulge, not a catastrophic failure like this.
Factory ammo in the hot sun is a zero possibility. Factory ammo is not loaded so hot that being in warm weather would make the load unsafe.
I am certain the gun failed. I have seen and heard of many split frames and barrels since S&W eliminated the pin. They have had a lot of trouble installing crush fit barrels. I've seen frames split right through the barrel threads and whole barrels blown off the frames.
If all you want is a replacement gun they should be happy to send you one. I would in their place. But take nothing for granted.
And please don't forget that there are many, many folks very interested in this. Post what the outcome of this tragedy is for everyone's benefit.
Thanks
Joe
Thanks
Joe
flagman1776
Member
I've seen pictures (haven't we all) of blown guns. Every revolver incident I can recall, the top chamber (or more) was blown open & the top strap damaged, if not blown off at least partially.
I am in agreement that there was likely a flaw in the barrel at the forcing cone. A metalurgist should be able to determine this with enough magnification. To assign blame to torquing the barrel, is beyond my pay grade, however likely.
I am in agreement that there was likely a flaw in the barrel at the forcing cone. A metalurgist should be able to determine this with enough magnification. To assign blame to torquing the barrel, is beyond my pay grade, however likely.
You are indeed lucky you or some fellow shooter off to the side wasn't fragged. However posts like this generate hundreds of experts none of which has the pieces in their hands or the probably the background to (1) check all the boxes and (2) determined the failure mode. So you may have a dilemma heading your way.
The factory wants the gun and all the pieces and won't say one way or the other how they will handle this.
You send them the gun you will almost never find out what caused this failure. If they have any liability exposure or share any they aren't going to want to help you out. They may indeed make you an offer something along the lines it could be your fault but we don't think the gun was defective. However we extend to you some goodwill and will sell you a new gun at cost. If they send you a new gun no charge then it was almost certainly defective but you will never know what went wrong and the gun never comes home.
Since there is no personal injury the factory service people will handle it most of the time unless they perceive you are potentially a legal threat.
The safest option if you think you are going to have problems is to have somebody photograph all parts and pieces including ammo boxes, cases etc with as much macro ( close up ) as possible. Inventory this and explain to the factory you are establishing a ' chain of custody ' and since this is your property you want it all returned to you in the same condition. Any failure analysis work where destructive testing is involved has to be done with your permission.
Right now you don't know if this is your fault or the factory or ammo maker so you just keep your fingers crossed somebody will step up with a settlement. In a pefect world you get a new gun but I wouldn't bet on it. This could take a while so the smart move is to get your ducks in a row. Be Prepared
Addendum: if you have time and deep pockets and really need to know how this failure occurred then perhaps you need to reach out to a good smallish test lab like I used to work with. It won't be cheap but this type of failure analysis is usually pretty straight forward.
Good luck
The factory wants the gun and all the pieces and won't say one way or the other how they will handle this.
You send them the gun you will almost never find out what caused this failure. If they have any liability exposure or share any they aren't going to want to help you out. They may indeed make you an offer something along the lines it could be your fault but we don't think the gun was defective. However we extend to you some goodwill and will sell you a new gun at cost. If they send you a new gun no charge then it was almost certainly defective but you will never know what went wrong and the gun never comes home.
Since there is no personal injury the factory service people will handle it most of the time unless they perceive you are potentially a legal threat.
The safest option if you think you are going to have problems is to have somebody photograph all parts and pieces including ammo boxes, cases etc with as much macro ( close up ) as possible. Inventory this and explain to the factory you are establishing a ' chain of custody ' and since this is your property you want it all returned to you in the same condition. Any failure analysis work where destructive testing is involved has to be done with your permission.
Right now you don't know if this is your fault or the factory or ammo maker so you just keep your fingers crossed somebody will step up with a settlement. In a pefect world you get a new gun but I wouldn't bet on it. This could take a while so the smart move is to get your ducks in a row. Be Prepared
Addendum: if you have time and deep pockets and really need to know how this failure occurred then perhaps you need to reach out to a good smallish test lab like I used to work with. It won't be cheap but this type of failure analysis is usually pretty straight forward.
Good luck
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dirtybarry
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Hmm, hadn't thought of that and it sounds totally plausible.
Good points. I've been professionally involved on a forensic level for twenty-eight years in federal courts. Furthermore I'm married to a Materials Engineer who socializes with three friends who are metallurgists . They are dull beyond dull until something juicy like this pops up. Two of them shoot.
Fracture faces are everything in this type of analysis and high resolution macro images are absolutely necessary. If this is a typical pressure failure then all the signs of ductile rupture will be quite evident and any competent metallographer can establish this. It's then a matter of determining what caused the excess pressure. If it's an inclusion, heat treat anomaly or other metallurgic issue it will take further testing. Most gun failures are pressure ruptures in the barrel or cylinder however there are quite a few where defective machining or other factors can result in frame related failures. I don't know the answers but I've worked with the people who do
Regards
Just a request to the original poster: When S&W gets back to you on whatever they say the cause is, would you please update the thread title so I'll know to check back in? Thanks in advance.
Campin---Listen to the Pig.. This aint ammo failure...Bad ammo would have left a blown cylinder or bulged barrel..Likely a cracked frame where the barrel screws in...Theres a Youtube video of a guy receiving a brand new 686 Competitor.. He opens the S&W blue box and the frame is cracked where it screws into the frame..Right where your barrel ad frame parted ways. There are others if you search... KEEP THE GUN... Send pictures, but KEEP THE GUN
Ok, no expert here, in fact, I'm just basing my observation on what I read here. I believe a few have said, since there is no sign of the top strap being damaged, then it can't be high pressure ammo related. WEll..... looking at the second picture, the front of the rear site is obviously damaged and bent upward. The screw that holds it down had to have a lot of force below it to pull it out of the top strap. Just my observation, but as I said, no clue as to what caused it, just an observation no one has mentioned.
Not true. Plenty of qualified people that don't work for S&W who could analyze. Sending it from S&W may get a new gun, but it will never get you a complete statement as to cause of failure. Their Lawyer's would never allow them to send out a statement that they were sending out guns with serious mechanical defects. Might show up in another more serious case.
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