Model 29 turn line
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It has nothing to do with timing. The gun has been used a lot, and I'd bet money that it has an aftermarket extra strength cylinder stop spring in it, and possibly aftermarket springs throughout the entire gun.
The extra strength spring helps keep the stop in place during recoil. Until the endurance packages came out, the 29 was well known for having the stop not hold the cylinder in place while shooting full power magnum loads.The extra strength spring was one "fix" for that issue. They are also installed in guns quite often that see fast double action work to make sure the stop has enough pressure behind it that the stop bottoms out in the stop notch as it should, stopping the cylinder in proper time/alignment with the bore.
The extra strength spring helps keep the stop in place during recoil. Until the endurance packages came out, the 29 was well known for having the stop not hold the cylinder in place while shooting full power magnum loads.The extra strength spring was one "fix" for that issue. They are also installed in guns quite often that see fast double action work to make sure the stop has enough pressure behind it that the stop bottoms out in the stop notch as it should, stopping the cylinder in proper time/alignment with the bore.
I'd check for push off. Make sure the gun is empty, then close the cylinder and cock the gun. Now, without touching the trigger, try to push the hammer off of its cocking notch with firm thumb pressure. If you can do that, it will need action work. Many guys try to make the pull lighter/easier by improperly filing the sear engagement notch down either to far or at the wrong angle or both.
That is a serious safety issue that needs attention immediately. Either a new hammer needs to be installed (the way I'd go), or a GOOD gunsmith need to try to repair the damaged notch. The problem is that S&W hammers and triggers are case hardened to approximately .006" deep, and when someone messes with the notch, often times they go through that harder layer, so even if a gunsmith can repair the notch and make it work correctly again, the notch will be worn down/out in rather short order since the new notch will be into the softer inner metal.
That is a serious safety issue that needs attention immediately. Either a new hammer needs to be installed (the way I'd go), or a GOOD gunsmith need to try to repair the damaged notch. The problem is that S&W hammers and triggers are case hardened to approximately .006" deep, and when someone messes with the notch, often times they go through that harder layer, so even if a gunsmith can repair the notch and make it work correctly again, the notch will be worn down/out in rather short order since the new notch will be into the softer inner metal.
R3captain, yes, several things.
Cylinder Ring or Line:
There are several aspects to the cylinder ring issue:
The cylinder line scribed by the cylinder stop is about the most obvious sign of wear. Not just a sign of shooting but also of cycling, opening for checking or loading and unloading.
#1. POLISHING THE CYLINDER STOP BOLT: For all SA and DA revolvers - the single most important preventative action you can take and the 1st thing I do on any revolver of mine, new or used is pull the cylinder (or open it, in the case of DAs) and polish the cylinder bolt! They all come with file marks just waiting to carve out a line and groove in your cylinder finish!! This is especially true on stainless which is relatively soft and therefore similar to aluminum when it is machined in that it has a tendency to gall like those little cuts or chisel marks seen on SS cylinders from a sharp edged Cyl stop.
#2. With a VERY FINE abrasive wheel in your Dremel tool, polish out the file marks and then with a felt buffing wheel and white rouge (for stainless steel) put a mirror finish on it. Don't forget to mask off the frame and breech face all around the bolt with duct tape because the Dremel bit will slip off the bolt. And don't overdo it unless it needs reshaping anyway to better fit and center in the cylinder notches. If you do nothing else, this is the single most important thing you can do to avoid that ugly cylinder ring! And it has delayed the bolt from even wearing all the way thru the bluing on a new gun after years of shooting on some of mine.
#3. Never drop the hammer from part way or half cock position; always cycle all the way thru the full cock position and then let the hammer down. If you don't, the cylinder has not been moved thru its full cycle which allows the bolt to pop up on the cylinder surface in the wrong position.
#4. DA REVOLVERS: Rely on #1 above! Eventually you may get a line on the cylinder but it should never be completely around the cylinder; only 1/2 way to the next cylinder notch. A simple habit when you close the cylinder, with your left hand grasp it around the bottom of the frame with thumb and forefinger in opposing flutes positioning them at 3 and 9 o'clock when closing the cylinder will prevent unnecessary scribing and becomes so natural after a while, one doesn't even have to think about. This works on five shot cylinders as well by positioning two flutes at 4 and 8 o'clock. Once closing the cylinder in alignment becomes a habit which is like after the 2nd time you do it for most of us, it's no "effort" what so ever; or about as much effort as remembering to breath. This WILL mitigate a full cylinder ring and at least limit it to an interrupted ring.
These actions will not completely prevent the cylinder ring but has mitigated the ring on my guns. Now you can handle and shoot 'like new' or old revolvers with a clear conscience that you won't cause any extra perceivable wear
Cylinder release:
One clear sign of heavy use or many rounds is the cylinder release pin in the recoil shield/breech plate, seen when cylinder is swung out. If the pin is a little oblong and it's hole is slightly elongated, the gun has had a lot of use, opening and closing the cyl to load and reload. And probably a lot of slamming shut like you see in the movies; that's abuse.
Loose cylinder:
If the cylinder wiggles side to side when closed or front to back, it has developed looseness. The cylinder should be tight and snug with hammer fully cocked.
Carry Up:
To test; the hammer should be thumb cocked very slowly and when the trigger sear is heard engaging the hammer full cock notch, the cyl bolt should snap into the cylinder notch at the same time. If the cyl has not turned far enough to engage the cyl stop, there is a "carry up" problem caused by worn parts; cyl ratchet and hand are worn causing poor "timing". Not good to shoot that way with the bullet in the cyl. chamber not in alignment with the bore!
Forcing Cone gas cutting:
The barrel forcing cone of a heavily used gun, especially a magnum or one fed a heavy diet of hot loads, will exhibit multi cuts around the end of the barrel surrounding the forcing cone, that look like the minute has marks on a clock face.
Bulged or 'Ringed' barrel:
Of course we always inspect the bore for wear and a dark ring, but the fingers can pick up irregularities the eye cannot. Always run the forefinger and thumb from one end of the barrel to the other. Even hard-to-see slight rings can be felt.
I'm sure there are others members can share.
Cylinder Ring or Line:
There are several aspects to the cylinder ring issue:
The cylinder line scribed by the cylinder stop is about the most obvious sign of wear. Not just a sign of shooting but also of cycling, opening for checking or loading and unloading.
#1. POLISHING THE CYLINDER STOP BOLT: For all SA and DA revolvers - the single most important preventative action you can take and the 1st thing I do on any revolver of mine, new or used is pull the cylinder (or open it, in the case of DAs) and polish the cylinder bolt! They all come with file marks just waiting to carve out a line and groove in your cylinder finish!! This is especially true on stainless which is relatively soft and therefore similar to aluminum when it is machined in that it has a tendency to gall like those little cuts or chisel marks seen on SS cylinders from a sharp edged Cyl stop.
#2. With a VERY FINE abrasive wheel in your Dremel tool, polish out the file marks and then with a felt buffing wheel and white rouge (for stainless steel) put a mirror finish on it. Don't forget to mask off the frame and breech face all around the bolt with duct tape because the Dremel bit will slip off the bolt. And don't overdo it unless it needs reshaping anyway to better fit and center in the cylinder notches. If you do nothing else, this is the single most important thing you can do to avoid that ugly cylinder ring! And it has delayed the bolt from even wearing all the way thru the bluing on a new gun after years of shooting on some of mine.
#3. Never drop the hammer from part way or half cock position; always cycle all the way thru the full cock position and then let the hammer down. If you don't, the cylinder has not been moved thru its full cycle which allows the bolt to pop up on the cylinder surface in the wrong position.
#4. DA REVOLVERS: Rely on #1 above! Eventually you may get a line on the cylinder but it should never be completely around the cylinder; only 1/2 way to the next cylinder notch. A simple habit when you close the cylinder, with your left hand grasp it around the bottom of the frame with thumb and forefinger in opposing flutes positioning them at 3 and 9 o'clock when closing the cylinder will prevent unnecessary scribing and becomes so natural after a while, one doesn't even have to think about. This works on five shot cylinders as well by positioning two flutes at 4 and 8 o'clock. Once closing the cylinder in alignment becomes a habit which is like after the 2nd time you do it for most of us, it's no "effort" what so ever; or about as much effort as remembering to breath. This WILL mitigate a full cylinder ring and at least limit it to an interrupted ring.
These actions will not completely prevent the cylinder ring but has mitigated the ring on my guns. Now you can handle and shoot 'like new' or old revolvers with a clear conscience that you won't cause any extra perceivable wear
Cylinder release:
One clear sign of heavy use or many rounds is the cylinder release pin in the recoil shield/breech plate, seen when cylinder is swung out. If the pin is a little oblong and it's hole is slightly elongated, the gun has had a lot of use, opening and closing the cyl to load and reload. And probably a lot of slamming shut like you see in the movies; that's abuse.
Loose cylinder:
If the cylinder wiggles side to side when closed or front to back, it has developed looseness. The cylinder should be tight and snug with hammer fully cocked.
Carry Up:
To test; the hammer should be thumb cocked very slowly and when the trigger sear is heard engaging the hammer full cock notch, the cyl bolt should snap into the cylinder notch at the same time. If the cyl has not turned far enough to engage the cyl stop, there is a "carry up" problem caused by worn parts; cyl ratchet and hand are worn causing poor "timing". Not good to shoot that way with the bullet in the cyl. chamber not in alignment with the bore!
Forcing Cone gas cutting:
The barrel forcing cone of a heavily used gun, especially a magnum or one fed a heavy diet of hot loads, will exhibit multi cuts around the end of the barrel surrounding the forcing cone, that look like the minute has marks on a clock face.
Bulged or 'Ringed' barrel:
Of course we always inspect the bore for wear and a dark ring, but the fingers can pick up irregularities the eye cannot. Always run the forefinger and thumb from one end of the barrel to the other. Even hard-to-see slight rings can be felt.
I'm sure there are others members can share.
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I would add to the above-
check for follow up (carry up is the same thing) by placing empty brass in the chambers first. The slight added drag of the case head faces against the recoil shield will help in spotting slow follow up and simulates the same condition as having live rounds in the cylinder during actual firing of the gun.
check for follow up (carry up is the same thing) by placing empty brass in the chambers first. The slight added drag of the case head faces against the recoil shield will help in spotting slow follow up and simulates the same condition as having live rounds in the cylinder during actual firing of the gun.
Personally... I wouldn't take a Dremel to the cylinder stop/bolt, all of my guns didn't need a power tool and it's just too easy to overdo something quickly with a Dremel tool.
Also some revolvers like the Ruger SA New Model Blackhawk, due to the design of the lock work, it is just about impossible not to get a pronounced drag line.
There's two things you want to accomplish with the cylinder stop/bolt on a S&W, smooth up the surface on the top of the arch of the cyl stop that bears on the cylinder surface, and you want to "break" the sharp (angular) edges of the stop by putting a radius on it, so as the cylinder rotates against the edges, there's no sharp 90 degree edge to "scrape" against the cylinder surface
Both can be accomplished with just a few passes of wet/dry sandpaper under light pressure, followed by polishing with a paste like Flitz.
I usually use 800 grit sandpaper, if the surface is "rough" I use 600 grit to begin with and smooth with 800. Then I polish with Flitz on the end of a Q-tip.
This is my 432PD... I wish I was a better photographer.
In the "before" pic on the left, I was attempting to show how angular the edges are to the surface of the stop, but the flash washes it out. I also was trying to show how the surface of the cylinder stop at the apex of the arched surface, had a slight ridge across the surface that you could feel with your finger nail.
The two "after" pics shows how I was able to "knock down" the sharp edges of the stop, and smooth out the arched surface, with about a dozen or so light passes with some 800 grit wet/dry sandpaper. The flash reflection makes it look like I really rounded over the edges and removed metal, but I didn't. I just changed the shape of the corner edge from square to a radius.
Then I polished it out to a mirror surface with a Q-tip dipped in Flitz polish... all in about 10 - 15 mins.
Also some revolvers like the Ruger SA New Model Blackhawk, due to the design of the lock work, it is just about impossible not to get a pronounced drag line.
There's two things you want to accomplish with the cylinder stop/bolt on a S&W, smooth up the surface on the top of the arch of the cyl stop that bears on the cylinder surface, and you want to "break" the sharp (angular) edges of the stop by putting a radius on it, so as the cylinder rotates against the edges, there's no sharp 90 degree edge to "scrape" against the cylinder surface
Both can be accomplished with just a few passes of wet/dry sandpaper under light pressure, followed by polishing with a paste like Flitz.
I usually use 800 grit sandpaper, if the surface is "rough" I use 600 grit to begin with and smooth with 800. Then I polish with Flitz on the end of a Q-tip.
This is my 432PD... I wish I was a better photographer.
In the "before" pic on the left, I was attempting to show how angular the edges are to the surface of the stop, but the flash washes it out. I also was trying to show how the surface of the cylinder stop at the apex of the arched surface, had a slight ridge across the surface that you could feel with your finger nail.
The two "after" pics shows how I was able to "knock down" the sharp edges of the stop, and smooth out the arched surface, with about a dozen or so light passes with some 800 grit wet/dry sandpaper. The flash reflection makes it look like I really rounded over the edges and removed metal, but I didn't. I just changed the shape of the corner edge from square to a radius.
Then I polished it out to a mirror surface with a Q-tip dipped in Flitz polish... all in about 10 - 15 mins.
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Thank you all for the great info.! I 've not seen many cylinder's with wear like this one, they usually have a more even ring. Gun4fun's theory about the stronger spring makes a lot of sense. The piece is an hour away so I haven't had a chance to handle it yet. I now have a better idea of what area's to pay attention to.
I have a shooter 29 that has a stronger cylinder stop spring and it doesn't have as bad a wear line as the one in the picture you posted, but it is a lot more noticeable than my other 29's with stock springs.
Nice photos, sir!
Wish I had seen this post before the drag line became noticeable. A thin strip of 1500 grit sandpaper wrapped over the end of a Popsicle stick smoothed mine very nicely. Visually, the results are practically invisible but you can easily feel the difference now that the knife-sharp edge is smoothed away.
Thank you for sharing!
TucsonMTB,
Thanks for the compliment, I took about a dozen pics and those are the only ones that came out good enough to use.
600/800 is about what you'll find in most hardware stores, I have 1000, 1500 & 2000 grit paper I got from a auto body paint supply that I use in my knife making/finishing hobby... it didn't even occur to me use some of 1500, that eliminates the messy Flitz cream.
You described it well... visually the results aren't impressive, but one swipe of the finger tells the story, as will the time it takes for a turn line to appear. On the 432PD, there is shiny line, but the finish is not worn through to metal... I think the polished surface of the stop is now burnishing the rougher/duller black oxide (or whatever it is) finish smooth.
Thanks for the compliment, I took about a dozen pics and those are the only ones that came out good enough to use.
600/800 is about what you'll find in most hardware stores, I have 1000, 1500 & 2000 grit paper I got from a auto body paint supply that I use in my knife making/finishing hobby... it didn't even occur to me use some of 1500, that eliminates the messy Flitz cream.
You described it well... visually the results aren't impressive, but one swipe of the finger tells the story, as will the time it takes for a turn line to appear. On the 432PD, there is shiny line, but the finish is not worn through to metal... I think the polished surface of the stop is now burnishing the rougher/duller black oxide (or whatever it is) finish smooth.
My pleasure! You earned it.
Looking at the picture of that revolver in a GunBlast review, it is clear you have avoided a pretty obvious scar, compared to their test gun, pictured below.
Congratulations!
IIRC Kuhnhausen advises chamfering the left edge of the cylinder stop only. Not the right edge. He also mentions polishing the top.
And please don't use a Dremel tool for this job.
*** I did not recall correctly. Kuhnhausen says to "bevel the corners very slightly". ***
I have been breaking the left edge only either on the basis of something else I read or my own theory about it being the leading edge. My M&P 342 barely has any turn line after well over 500 rounds/dry firing. HOWEVER, Jim/Hondo's explanation below regarding how the trailing edge has more contact as soon as the ball approaches the ramp for the cylinder notch makes a lot of sense to me.
And please don't use a Dremel tool for this job.
*** I did not recall correctly. Kuhnhausen says to "bevel the corners very slightly". ***
I have been breaking the left edge only either on the basis of something else I read or my own theory about it being the leading edge. My M&P 342 barely has any turn line after well over 500 rounds/dry firing. HOWEVER, Jim/Hondo's explanation below regarding how the trailing edge has more contact as soon as the ball approaches the ramp for the cylinder notch makes a lot of sense to me.
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Everyone should know their limitations. We know some cannot even use a screwdriver properly either. Should we all stop using screwdrivers?
Neither edge should be chamfered or they would have come chamfered from S&W. And it's only the right edge that contacts the cyl and does the damage! You just need to 'break' the 'knife edge' on the right side.
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Yes a heavier spring will exasperate the ring. But still, the wider part of the ring on that 29 is the only part that cannot completely be avoided. The full ring is caused by casual handling and operation explained in my post #5 above under #3 & #4.
For examples each gun has hundreds of rounds thru it.
Top, 22/32 Kit Gun owned since new. Bottom 32 Kit Gun has had casual handling before I got it:
45 ACP 1950 Target, Pre model 26:
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,,,,,,the post following this one sez
only
the right edge ; nothing like a complete contradiction to totally confuse me !
Further more - would that be the guns left ? my left ? the left side pointing the muzzle away from me or the left side with the muzzle pointing at me ??
I always smear a bead of grease along the turn line after I clean my Magnums- sure can't hurt
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Mike,
The gun's right is the same as your right. When you point the gun down range the right side of the cyl bolt is on the right. It's the high edge of the bolt.
I gave my logic for "breaking" the 'knife edge's' particularly on the right edge.
I have worse disagreements with some of the advice in his manuals than just this.
As most gunsmiths will tell you, they consider Kuhnhauser a writer, not a gunsmith. His manuals are very helpful if you know something, very little or nothing. Gunsmithing is a craft and an art form. There are more ways than one to do most things. Some better than others.
The gun's right is the same as your right. When you point the gun down range the right side of the cyl bolt is on the right. It's the high edge of the bolt.
I gave my logic for "breaking" the 'knife edge's' particularly on the right edge.
I have worse disagreements with some of the advice in his manuals than just this.
As most gunsmiths will tell you, they consider Kuhnhauser a writer, not a gunsmith. His manuals are very helpful if you know something, very little or nothing. Gunsmithing is a craft and an art form. There are more ways than one to do most things. Some better than others.
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Rick_A
Member
I don't fret over such things.
Nothing wrong with looking like it's actually been used as intended.
Nothing wrong with looking like it's actually been used as intended.
Rick,
Many, many agree with you and absolutely nothing wrong with that on your own guns.
You're just in the wrong thread for you.
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Back in the old days more care was taken in timing the cylinder stop so that it engaged at the moment needed. IME since around 1979 or so this aspect of manufacture was abandoned. Now no effort is made to properly time it as this takes time and time is money. I have a Model 25-2 from 1980 with a deep, horrendous drag line. The cylinder stop obviously rides in contact with the cylinder constantly. Meanwhile, I have guns from the 1940s and 1950s with the most miniscule of turn lines despite many years and countless rounds fired.
From 1945 with hardly any line despite much hard use:
A 1956 gun with barely any line:
This one has a gouge running around the cylinder you can catch with a fingernail:
From 1945 with hardly any line despite much hard use:
A 1956 gun with barely any line:
This one has a gouge running around the cylinder you can catch with a fingernail:
model70hunter
Member
This is a required step on all revolvers when buying used. I once rebuilt about 10 S&W K frames for a gun shop that a self proclaimed patrolman/gunsmith "slicked" up for the City PD. All 10 would push off.
A gun may look NIB but one can never be sure it hasn't been hacked inside.
Excellent point Gun 4 Fun.
I hear ya. I always check for push off, and every so often I'll find an otherwise really nice gun with no other issues with that condition. 9 out of 10 times it is on a target model gun of some sort that someone thought they could "slick up".
model70hunter
Member
I hear ya. I always check for push off, and every so often I'll find an otherwise really nice gun with no other issues with that condition. 9 out of 10 times it is on a target model gun of some sort that someone thought they could "slick up".
I also check used rifles/shotguns by verifying they are empty, cock and rap the butt hard with my hand. It does PO the LGS owner when one goes CLICK but they eventually are glad it was found before it went out the door. I also wiggle the trigger and found one that would fire if pushed lightly sideways.
If folks will not take off the zip tie at a gun show I will always pass.
I started doing this after I bought a rifle, mounted a scope and took it out to zero it in. It did not do it each time but the first time it was pointed safely down range when I closed the bolt. KABOOM! Scared the daylights out of me. I don't remember if I adjusted the trigger or took it back to the gun shop. From that time on I rapped the butt.
Rick_A
Member
As this was the original inquiry:
My comment was perfectly in line with this thread.
While others offered good advice to reduce the appearance of the turn line, that was not the original inquiry, and the gun in question is obviously well past such advice, but I digress. Some good safety info was given nonetheless.
Rick glad to hear that.
And no matter how bad the turn line, it's never too late to polish the bolt. The line will only get worse, and faster if the bolt is not addressed.
And no matter how bad the turn line, it's never too late to polish the bolt. The line will only get worse, and faster if the bolt is not addressed.
Hondo - thank you for pointing me in the right direction . Sometimes I can get too spicy with my choice of words . I really mean no harm and will strive to stay between the lines in my posts .
Mike,
No worries! And you're very welcome and I'm glad that you're here.
No worries! And you're very welcome and I'm glad that you're here.
Respectfully, a Smith & Wesson revolver cylinder rotates counterclockwise. Therefore the left edge of the cylinder stop is the leading edge. That is the edge cutting the line.
"Chamfered" was a very poor choice of words. Breaking the sharp edge is all that's needed. Further backing up my advice to leave the Dremel tool in its box for this application.
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