Model 36 accuracy question

[LostintheOzone]

I've never owned a model 36 but I have a Taurus 85. I recently went on a mission to determine the accuracy of this revolver. I loaded for it up down and sideways to get a semblance of accuracy with it and nothing worked. I even put a better set of Hogue grips on it and was disappointed. The best I could do is a respectable group at 10 yards but it shoots 6'' high and 6'' left all day long with my best load of 125's. They work much better than 158's in this gun. A few days ago I finally decided I was going to give up on it after months of screwing around with this snub. I know, it's a cheap 60 knock off but I like the size and weight for carry.

Here's my question. Can anyone tell me if their 36/60 will produce a softball size group at 15 yards. That's what I consider minimal for a carry gun. I can do that all day long with my P-239 so that's what I carry now. I really would like to have a 36/60 as a pocket carry tho, the 239 requires a holster and it's bigger and heavier than a 36.

I like the early models so I would be looking at buying a pinned model if I could expect the accuracy I mentioned from a 36. My neighbor said his wouldn't shoot that well but he never worked on his loads and he never shot it much. I know how to tune loads for different guns as I've got my model 19's singing.

Thanks for any help or experience you have to share.

 

[haywood]

I don’t have a target from my 36 but, I had one From my 442. At 21 ft. Or so, I had 20 rounds of 125 gr. That I could cover with my fist. That’s a DAO 2” Gun. I don’t know if that helps you. Have you shot the gun much? It took me a lot of dry firing to learn trigger control for shooting a Snub. Then lots of rounds down Range. It’s probably the hardest gun to shoot accurately. I would say I am only a fair shot. Some guys can shoot them out to 25 yds. Let others shoot your gun and see how they do.

 

[LostintheOzone]

Have you shot the gun much?

Probably 1000 rds. Neighbor shot it who is a better pistol shooter than I. He couldn't believe it either.

I've had this gun for almost 30 years and it's been used like a shovel.

It groups OK but the POA/POI is abysmal and I can't live with it. At 15 yds I'm off the paper unless I shoot low and right.

 

[Rpg]

From a rest, a M36 will easily produce groups under 2” at 7-10 yards.

The inherent accuracy of these j frames is regularly underestimated.

As is often the case, accuracy issues are shooter related, not gun related.

 

[SDH]

For better control and sight radius, consider a 3", M-36-1 Square butt. Mine shoots great!

 

[arjay]

I could consistently hit a skilsaw blade with my model 60 at 25 yards.That was with rubber grips,wadcutters,I was ten yrs younger and was practicing a lot lol

 

[elpac3]

Used to pop leaves floating on the river from the bridge at 25 yards with my model 36 using 148 wadcutters

 

[flagman1776]

There is the mechanical accuracy of the machine... best determined by shooting single action from a rest. I used a block of wood & a shot bag. Bullet weight matters a lot with snubbies, as far as POI. I always started on the bench, with a large target close up... get all the shots on paper & learning where to hold, before opening the distance.
And then there is practical accuracy. Negative factors: short sight radius, probably smaller sights, possibly grips that are difficlt to hold well, problems with trigger smoothness & pull weight.

 

[MetalMan]

I took my 2-Model 60's (ND, 2"bbl, 1-DAO and 1 DA/SA) and 60-15 (3"bbl) to the range middle of last week.

Set targets up at 10 yards, shot factory loads (130grain FMJ) and was able to make fist-sized groupings at this distance. Needless to say, performance with the 60-15 was the best of the bunch.

 

[Birdgun]

Combat shooting at 7 yards, I am reasonably accurate with my 19-3 (6-inch barrel) and 15-4 (4-inch barrel) but my shot groups open up triple the size with my 36 (2-inch barrel). Other than that, I like my Model 36.

S&W Model 36

God bless,
Birdgun

 

[apollo99]

I practice at 21' with my model 36, it puts 25 in a group I can cover with my hand. after I get my bearings right I can hit my 12" steel gong 8 or 9 times out of 10 shots. Never had an accuracy issue with 148 grain wadcutters or 158 SWC.

 

[ShivasIrons]

I regularly shoot my snubs offhand at 7 yards and produce groups that I can cover with my hand. I own a bunch of J Frames, 3 Charter Arms and 2 Taurus. The POI up and down is largely determine by bullet weight. IIRC the sights are calibrated for use with 158gr rounds. I usually shoot 125gr or 110 gr rounds and they impact a few inches low. The 158s are at point of aim.

At 15 yards single action I am a bit larger than a a softball with a J frame. That is starting to ask a lot of those J frame sights at that point for me. I would like to get a hold of a 2 inch Model 15 at some point. Think the sights would really help with accuracy.

 

[LostintheOzone]

Well, I have a 2.5" model 19. It does just fine at 25 yds, probably everything inside of a cantaloupe sized circle. I love to talk about fresh melons this time of year. I surely wish I could do that at 15 yds with this Taurus. I believe the barrel may be canted so I'm looking to replace it with something. I've lost faith in this Taurus but I do like the design it's based on.

At 15 yards single action I am a bit larger than a a softball with a J frame.

That's what I'm looking for.

 

[len917]

For better control and sight radius, consider a 3", M-36-1 Square butt. Mine shoots great!

3" is the way to go and is very concealable. Hardball size groups at 15 yds and with practice, Spaulding size groups are attainable. Add Pachmyer grips, it helps

 

[chiefdave]

I was gifted this less than mint (way less) Detective Spl. many years ago in about the same condition as you see it now. As ugly as it is it's the only snub that I've shot that I would depend on for self defense base on accuracy. Small groups and points of aim and impact are the same at 15 yards using 125 gr JHP. Stays in the truck. I know it's not a Smith but it will do the job if called.

 

[rct269]

Once upon a time, in a land far,far away-----------------

I had an early Chiefs Special Target (with target grips). As a frequent bullseye shooter, I would regularly comment disparagingly on low scores posted---adding that I could do better than that with my snub-nose. Such comments were often met with the challenge of "For how much?!!".

Once the stakes were settled, I shot the "snub-nose"---and collected my money. Now such shenanigans didn't last too long at home----but they more than paid my travel expenses to the "away games".

Bottom Line: You do your job, and these little boogers will do their job---every time---all the time.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[haywood]

Sounds like you should have sent that in 30 years ago. Too late now.

 

[snubbyfan]

I did this:


From about this far away (I'm the hairy guy on the left):


With this:


It's not a model 36/60 but it's a double action only J frame snubby that's supposed to be harder to shoot accurately.

 

[Fishinfool]

I remember reading a magazine article years ago that tested the accuracy of several popular snubs at 25 yards, (S&W 36, a Colt Detective Special, Charter Arms, if I remember right) using a Ransom mechanical rest, and a variety of popular ammo.

I don't remember the exact group sizes now, but they all were pretty impressive, under 3 inches I believe, with ammo they liked.

Problem with the J frames in general are they are more difficult to shoot handheld compared to a K or N frame. POI is a **** shoot with fixed sights, though they are usually close enough for the intended purpose.

Larry

 

[MetalMan]

I did this:


From about this far away (I'm the hairy guy on the left):


With this:


It's not a model 36/60 but it's a double action only J frame snubby that's supposed to be harder to shoot accurately.

Darn good shootin’ with that 442, Snubby!!

 

[haywood]

I did this:


From about this far away (I'm the hairy guy on the left):


With this:


It's not a model 36/60 but it's a double action only J frame snubby that's supposed to be harder to shoot accurately.

How far away is that?

 

[model3sw]

Guys, all this ragging on inaccurate guns to the accuracy braggadocio aside ... if you REALLY want to know, place it in a Ransom rest with Mid-Range loads, then see what the SNUBBIE will do, without your hand-held / hand-eye coordination intervention. I've always found they hit where you point them (I will limit this statement to S&Ws Chief Specials as that is all I know as pertains to snub-nose revovlers).

In all honesty, even with target sights on a 2" (which really LOOKS strange) or even a 3" Chief's special ... these are NOT bullseye guns.

They were intended chiefly for self defense, for conceal-ablity and reliability ... and ... all this in a CLOSE RANGE situation.

The times would be rare that a Chief used in self defense will be needed in anything further than 25 feet. Usually 15 feet and under is about "it".

NO ONE is hitting a a dead bullseye at 25 feet in an actual / real-life emergency draw and fire situation with a Chief.

HOWEVER, in a Ransom Rest at 25 feet the results are quite impressive with a Chief 2" barrel, I think.

The slightest movement and / or a double action pull is going to be tough for the best of us. Habitually, I have the hammer back on at least the first shot. This method actually saved my life and my son's life back one day in 1992. I have large hands. The Chief (this one was round butt) with standard stocks had a habit of rolling back in my hand no matter how hard I held on to it, so I regularly aimed lower until I graduated to a set of Pachmyers with finger grooves. Had to give up some of the conceal-ablity to become more accurate.

Another preference of my own are either the older S&W or Federal HP Nyclads standard .38 Special loads that are no longer manufactured. Much easier to be on target with a Non +P than a +P on a smaller handgun. My son has a newer 3" J-frame .357 in Stainless. That thing with .357 loads is brutal.

Mark Calzaretta recently brought over a set of Crimson Trace green laser grips for my 60-1 Ashland Target. A few hours on the range, first in the Ransom Rest to adjust and verify on-target at 25 feet where the green dot hits, then a few more shots stabilizing on a bean bag, then finally off hand. Amazing results.

Or, try just a bore-sighter laser to dry fire on target to visually how much movement is in your hand, not in the gun.

It is usually NOT the gun that is inaccurate.

 

[rwsmith]

SNUBS take....

Snubs take a lot of practice and control to shoot that well at 15 yards. The old saw about longer barrels being more accurate is no longer true with modern guns and ammo. The two things you lose with a snub are 1) they have a very short sight radius which makes them difficult to aim, and 2) a shorter barrel is less able to attain the velocity of longer barrels. They are no less accurate, just harder to shoot well. Hickok45 on youtube puts me to shame because he can hit his 80 yard gong consistently at 80 yards with snubs and pocket pistols.

I put big grips on my mod 36 that improve my shooting some.

 

[snubbyfan]

Darn good shootin’ with that 442, Snubby!!

That was right after I started having motor nerve problems. Did a spring change to reduce the trigger pull then did lotsa dry fire practice.
I was kinda apprehensive whether or not I could still shoot my carry snubby.
Turned out I could shoot it better.

 

[snubbyfan]

How far away is that?

I honestly have no idea. It's 'bout halfway to the back of the range.

 

[rwsmith]

Gunbroker....

Sounds like you should have sent that in 30 years ago. Too late now.

Vintage Taurus revolver - RARE!

 

[rwsmith]

Some general comments......

A fist sized group at 15 yards is pretty stiff requirement for SD at 15 yards. I usually try for paper plate size patterns at that distance especially with a snub.

All of you guys can shoot a heck of a lot better than I can. I hope if I'm attacked it's at close range.

I can cover my patterns at 15 yards with my hand, too. But you ought to see my hand.

Personally, if I felt like I needed that accuracy some trigger work would probably be in order with any other improvement I could find like better sights. None of my guns are modified in any way, so that might tell you something.

 

[Jim NNN]

Can anyone tell me if their 36/60 will produce a softball size group at 15 yards. That's what I consider minimal for a carry gun.

As someone else said, a 3" model 36 might do that, but with a 2" version a person would have to train a whole lot to accomplish that. My 3" gun is a safe queen, so it's been years since I've shot it, but I remember being surprised and impressed with the accuracy. A soft ball size group at 15 yards offhanded is what I do with my best K frames, but I'm not a great shot. If you can do that with your Sig, you've already found the solution to your problem. A pocket gun should be a back-up for you. Just my opinion. Best wishes.

 

[klind45]

Hello I just love mine,at the range I can chase a ballistic ball out to 25+ yards. The bottom one

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

 

[SA1911]

Hi LostintheOzone,

The Chief's Special ain't a target handgun. It's a belly gun. It doesn't need sights. It is a close range handgun. It's a one threat handgun. If you had the extreme misfortune of confronting more that one bad guy while armed with only a Chief, may God be at your side. Keep in mind that bad guys rarely do bad things alone. If you ID one bad guy, look for others. A Chief holds five rounds and takes a full rotation of Earth to reload another five of what I consider bare minimum self-defense rounds. +P .38 Special rounds aren't special. May God be at your side should you have to reload any revolver at night while a bad guy is putting rounds on you.

I own a couple Chiefs. I love 'em. But I don't trust them to save my life. They're a neck and up gun meaning that if you don't connect with a threat's CNS at the range of their intended use, you're likely to take bad guy rounds, which ain't good. Without a CNS hit, a threat can soak up a lot of lead before he becomes incapacitated. The longer he's vertical, the more time he has to schedule your corpse for autopsy.

It's a very wise idea to get the heck outta a bad guy's sight picture. That means you gotta shoot and move. If you were stationary, you'd hand a bad guy a very good target of yourself.

Please indulge me: I've been able to carry a concealed handgun since 1982. I've carried quite a few, including a few duty handguns. You already have what might be the best CCW handgun: Sig P239. A P239 chambered for .40 S&W is the only handgun I'll carry; however, I can't tell you the last time I've carried a handgun on me.

You're right: the P239 is about 10 ounces heavier than a Chief. There's good reason for that weight. Recoil of a self-defense handgun must not take its muzzle off of a threat. Realigning sight picture is a tactical disadvantage. I can put 8 180 grain rounds in the important part of a silhouette at 21' as fast as I can pull the trigger. The added weight of a P239 facilitates keeping its muzzle pointed at what it oughta be pointed. I've fired the FBI Load out of a Chief, which might be the best round for belly gun self-defense. From a lot of experience, I can tell you that it's not easy to control a Chief with the FBI Load.

You can reload a P239 inside a couple seconds, which is a definite tactical advantage.

Here's my advice, which is nothing more than opinion: buy an excellent quality holster for your P239. It'll make carrying it a whole lot easier. Then buy a Chief because they're extremely cool handguns.

The Chief Special deserves its own category on this forum. It's an American icon. My guess is that after the 1911-A1, it's the most copied handgun ever produced.

BTW, have I mentioned that the Chief's Special is an extremely cool handgun???

We need a dedicated Cheif's Special category on this forum.

BTW, when I do shoot a Chief, it's at no farther than 10'.

One more BTW, in a perfect world, I'd carry a full-size 1911-A1 with 230 grain ammo. But then again, in a perfect world, I wouldn't need to carry a handgun.