I did this:
From about this far away (I'm the hairy guy on the left):
With this:
It's not a model 36/60 but it's a double action only J frame snubby that's supposed to be harder to shoot accurately.
How far away is that?
Model 36 accuracy question
- Thread starter LostintheOzone
- Start date
How far away is that?
Guys, all this ragging on inaccurate guns to the accuracy braggadocio aside ... if you REALLY want to know, place it in a Ransom rest with Mid-Range loads, then see what the SNUBBIE will do, without your hand-held / hand-eye coordination intervention. I've always found they hit where you point them (I will limit this statement to S&Ws Chief Specials as that is all I know as pertains to snub-nose revovlers).
In all honesty, even with target sights on a 2" (which really LOOKS strange) or even a 3" Chief's special ... these are NOT bullseye guns.
They were intended chiefly for self defense, for conceal-ablity and reliability ... and ... all this in a CLOSE RANGE situation.
The times would be rare that a Chief used in self defense will be needed in anything further than 25 feet. Usually 15 feet and under is about "it".
NO ONE is hitting a a dead bullseye at 25 feet in an actual / real-life emergency draw and fire situation with a Chief.
HOWEVER, in a Ransom Rest at 25 feet the results are quite impressive with a Chief 2" barrel, I think.
The slightest movement and / or a double action pull is going to be tough for the best of us. Habitually, I have the hammer back on at least the first shot. This method actually saved my life and my son's life back one day in 1992. I have large hands. The Chief (this one was round butt) with standard stocks had a habit of rolling back in my hand no matter how hard I held on to it, so I regularly aimed lower until I graduated to a set of Pachmyers with finger grooves. Had to give up some of the conceal-ablity to become more accurate.
Another preference of my own are either the older S&W or Federal HP Nyclads standard .38 Special loads that are no longer manufactured. Much easier to be on target with a Non +P than a +P on a smaller handgun. My son has a newer 3" J-frame .357 in Stainless. That thing with .357 loads is brutal.
Mark Calzaretta recently brought over a set of Crimson Trace green laser grips for my 60-1 Ashland Target. A few hours on the range, first in the Ransom Rest to adjust and verify on-target at 25 feet where the green dot hits, then a few more shots stabilizing on a bean bag, then finally off hand. Amazing results.
Or, try just a bore-sighter laser to dry fire on target to visually how much movement is in your hand, not in the gun.
It is usually NOT the gun that is inaccurate.
In all honesty, even with target sights on a 2" (which really LOOKS strange) or even a 3" Chief's special ... these are NOT bullseye guns.
They were intended chiefly for self defense, for conceal-ablity and reliability ... and ... all this in a CLOSE RANGE situation.
The times would be rare that a Chief used in self defense will be needed in anything further than 25 feet. Usually 15 feet and under is about "it".
NO ONE is hitting a a dead bullseye at 25 feet in an actual / real-life emergency draw and fire situation with a Chief.
HOWEVER, in a Ransom Rest at 25 feet the results are quite impressive with a Chief 2" barrel, I think.
The slightest movement and / or a double action pull is going to be tough for the best of us. Habitually, I have the hammer back on at least the first shot. This method actually saved my life and my son's life back one day in 1992. I have large hands. The Chief (this one was round butt) with standard stocks had a habit of rolling back in my hand no matter how hard I held on to it, so I regularly aimed lower until I graduated to a set of Pachmyers with finger grooves. Had to give up some of the conceal-ablity to become more accurate.
Another preference of my own are either the older S&W or Federal HP Nyclads standard .38 Special loads that are no longer manufactured. Much easier to be on target with a Non +P than a +P on a smaller handgun. My son has a newer 3" J-frame .357 in Stainless. That thing with .357 loads is brutal.
Mark Calzaretta recently brought over a set of Crimson Trace green laser grips for my 60-1 Ashland Target. A few hours on the range, first in the Ransom Rest to adjust and verify on-target at 25 feet where the green dot hits, then a few more shots stabilizing on a bean bag, then finally off hand. Amazing results.
Or, try just a bore-sighter laser to dry fire on target to visually how much movement is in your hand, not in the gun.
It is usually NOT the gun that is inaccurate.
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SNUBS take....
Snubs take a lot of practice and control to shoot that well at 15 yards. The old saw about longer barrels being more accurate is no longer true with modern guns and ammo. The two things you lose with a snub are 1) they have a very short sight radius which makes them difficult to aim, and 2) a shorter barrel is less able to attain the velocity of longer barrels. They are no less accurate, just harder to shoot well. Hickok45 on youtube puts me to shame because he can hit his 80 yard gong consistently at 80 yards with snubs and pocket pistols.
I put big grips on my mod 36 that improve my shooting some.
Snubs take a lot of practice and control to shoot that well at 15 yards. The old saw about longer barrels being more accurate is no longer true with modern guns and ammo. The two things you lose with a snub are 1) they have a very short sight radius which makes them difficult to aim, and 2) a shorter barrel is less able to attain the velocity of longer barrels. They are no less accurate, just harder to shoot well. Hickok45 on youtube puts me to shame because he can hit his 80 yard gong consistently at 80 yards with snubs and pocket pistols.
I put big grips on my mod 36 that improve my shooting some.
That was right after I started having motor nerve problems. Did a spring change to reduce the trigger pull then did lotsa dry fire practice.
I was kinda apprehensive whether or not I could still shoot my carry snubby.
Turned out I could shoot it better.
I honestly have no idea. It's 'bout halfway to the back of the range.
Some general comments......
A fist sized group at 15 yards is pretty stiff requirement for SD at 15 yards. I usually try for paper plate size patterns at that distance especially with a snub.
All of you guys can shoot a heck of a lot better than I can. I hope if I'm attacked it's at close range.
I can cover my patterns at 15 yards with my hand, too. But you ought to see my hand.
Personally, if I felt like I needed that accuracy some trigger work would probably be in order with any other improvement I could find like better sights. None of my guns are modified in any way, so that might tell you something.
A fist sized group at 15 yards is pretty stiff requirement for SD at 15 yards. I usually try for paper plate size patterns at that distance especially with a snub.
All of you guys can shoot a heck of a lot better than I can. I hope if I'm attacked it's at close range.
I can cover my patterns at 15 yards with my hand, too. But you ought to see my hand.
Personally, if I felt like I needed that accuracy some trigger work would probably be in order with any other improvement I could find like better sights. None of my guns are modified in any way, so that might tell you something.
As someone else said, a 3" model 36 might do that, but with a 2" version a person would have to train a whole lot to accomplish that. My 3" gun is a safe queen, so it's been years since I've shot it, but I remember being surprised and impressed with the accuracy. A soft ball size group at 15 yards offhanded is what I do with my best K frames, but I'm not a great shot. If you can do that with your Sig, you've already found the solution to your problem. A pocket gun should be a back-up for you. Just my opinion. Best wishes.
Hi LostintheOzone,
The Chief's Special ain't a target handgun. It's a belly gun. It doesn't need sights. It is a close range handgun. It's a one threat handgun. If you had the extreme misfortune of confronting more that one bad guy while armed with only a Chief, may God be at your side. Keep in mind that bad guys rarely do bad things alone. If you ID one bad guy, look for others. A Chief holds five rounds and takes a full rotation of Earth to reload another five of what I consider bare minimum self-defense rounds. +P .38 Special rounds aren't special. May God be at your side should you have to reload any revolver at night while a bad guy is putting rounds on you.
I own a couple Chiefs. I love 'em. But I don't trust them to save my life. They're a neck and up gun meaning that if you don't connect with a threat's CNS at the range of their intended use, you're likely to take bad guy rounds, which ain't good. Without a CNS hit, a threat can soak up a lot of lead before he becomes incapacitated. The longer he's vertical, the more time he has to schedule your corpse for autopsy.
It's a very wise idea to get the heck outta a bad guy's sight picture. That means you gotta shoot and move. If you were stationary, you'd hand a bad guy a very good target of yourself.
Please indulge me: I've been able to carry a concealed handgun since 1982. I've carried quite a few, including a few duty handguns. You already have what might be the best CCW handgun: Sig P239. A P239 chambered for .40 S&W is the only handgun I'll carry; however, I can't tell you the last time I've carried a handgun on me.
You're right: the P239 is about 10 ounces heavier than a Chief. There's good reason for that weight. Recoil of a self-defense handgun must not take its muzzle off of a threat. Realigning sight picture is a tactical disadvantage. I can put 8 180 grain rounds in the important part of a silhouette at 21' as fast as I can pull the trigger. The added weight of a P239 facilitates keeping its muzzle pointed at what it oughta be pointed. I've fired the FBI Load out of a Chief, which might be the best round for belly gun self-defense. From a lot of experience, I can tell you that it's not easy to control a Chief with the FBI Load.
You can reload a P239 inside a couple seconds, which is a definite tactical advantage.
Here's my advice, which is nothing more than opinion: buy an excellent quality holster for your P239. It'll make carrying it a whole lot easier. Then buy a Chief because they're extremely cool handguns.
The Chief Special deserves its own category on this forum. It's an American icon. My guess is that after the 1911-A1, it's the most copied handgun ever produced.
BTW, have I mentioned that the Chief's Special is an extremely cool handgun???
We need a dedicated Cheif's Special category on this forum.
BTW, when I do shoot a Chief, it's at no farther than 10'.
One more BTW, in a perfect world, I'd carry a full-size 1911-A1 with 230 grain ammo. But then again, in a perfect world, I wouldn't need to carry a handgun.
The Chief's Special ain't a target handgun. It's a belly gun. It doesn't need sights. It is a close range handgun. It's a one threat handgun. If you had the extreme misfortune of confronting more that one bad guy while armed with only a Chief, may God be at your side. Keep in mind that bad guys rarely do bad things alone. If you ID one bad guy, look for others. A Chief holds five rounds and takes a full rotation of Earth to reload another five of what I consider bare minimum self-defense rounds. +P .38 Special rounds aren't special. May God be at your side should you have to reload any revolver at night while a bad guy is putting rounds on you.
I own a couple Chiefs. I love 'em. But I don't trust them to save my life. They're a neck and up gun meaning that if you don't connect with a threat's CNS at the range of their intended use, you're likely to take bad guy rounds, which ain't good. Without a CNS hit, a threat can soak up a lot of lead before he becomes incapacitated. The longer he's vertical, the more time he has to schedule your corpse for autopsy.
It's a very wise idea to get the heck outta a bad guy's sight picture. That means you gotta shoot and move. If you were stationary, you'd hand a bad guy a very good target of yourself.
Please indulge me: I've been able to carry a concealed handgun since 1982. I've carried quite a few, including a few duty handguns. You already have what might be the best CCW handgun: Sig P239. A P239 chambered for .40 S&W is the only handgun I'll carry; however, I can't tell you the last time I've carried a handgun on me.
You're right: the P239 is about 10 ounces heavier than a Chief. There's good reason for that weight. Recoil of a self-defense handgun must not take its muzzle off of a threat. Realigning sight picture is a tactical disadvantage. I can put 8 180 grain rounds in the important part of a silhouette at 21' as fast as I can pull the trigger. The added weight of a P239 facilitates keeping its muzzle pointed at what it oughta be pointed. I've fired the FBI Load out of a Chief, which might be the best round for belly gun self-defense. From a lot of experience, I can tell you that it's not easy to control a Chief with the FBI Load.
You can reload a P239 inside a couple seconds, which is a definite tactical advantage.
Here's my advice, which is nothing more than opinion: buy an excellent quality holster for your P239. It'll make carrying it a whole lot easier. Then buy a Chief because they're extremely cool handguns.
The Chief Special deserves its own category on this forum. It's an American icon. My guess is that after the 1911-A1, it's the most copied handgun ever produced.
BTW, have I mentioned that the Chief's Special is an extremely cool handgun???
We need a dedicated Cheif's Special category on this forum.
BTW, when I do shoot a Chief, it's at no farther than 10'.
One more BTW, in a perfect world, I'd carry a full-size 1911-A1 with 230 grain ammo. But then again, in a perfect world, I wouldn't need to carry a handgun.
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mike campbell
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The bullet goes where the red dot goes ... always. The laser doesn't know or care if the barrel length is 2" or 8".
The red dot is visible indoors under all lighting and outdoors in low light conditions, of course. It is not visible in bright sunlight, in which case I would not use/need any sights at all.
God is my co-pilot ... always at my side. But I try to always have a gun, in case He's busy.
The red dot is visible indoors under all lighting and outdoors in low light conditions, of course. It is not visible in bright sunlight, in which case I would not use/need any sights at all.
God is my co-pilot ... always at my side. But I try to always have a gun, in case He's busy.
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The bullet goes where the red dot goes ... always. The laser doesn't know or care if the barrel length is 2" or 8".
The red dot is visible indoors under all lighting and outdoors in low light conditions, of course. It is not visible in bright sunlight, in which case I would not use/need any sights at all.
God is my co-pilot ... always at my side. But I try to always have a gun, in case He's busy.
Now THAT's what I'm talkin' about. I, also, have a set of Crimson Trace (green laser) on my 60-1, same (or near same) results.
TomkinsSP
Member
About 40 years ago we had to qualify at 25 YARDS with our carry weapons, be they 4 inch K frames or 2 inch J frames. The guns are capable. We were taught timed deliberate aimed fire (and were turned out for duty with 15 to 23 rounds of ammo), no spray and pray. My M640 will put five into a group you can cover with a silver dollar at 7 yards and I can still keep all shots on a paper plate at 25 yards (that would be the same size as Mr. Psycopath's head).
Good Morning, Mr. Tomkins,
I remember those days, but they were about 35 years ago for me. In the mid '80's, we were agency disabused of the Weaver stance, combat crouch, isosceles hold, deliberate aim, and all that went with it. We were retrained with hip point, shoulder point, and aiming at 15 yards. For many reasons, we never qualified beyond 15 yards. Most importantly, tactics evolved: the primary objective was not dying. Learning how to avoid bullets became more important that hitting threats. We were taught to identify suitable barriers that are common. Trading our lives for bad guys' lives was not a suitable outcome. ANY hit on a bad guy was a good hit. Also, hits in groups were not as efficacious as hits inches apart. Speed to battery and speed to shots on threats were required. Misses were considered good if they prevented incoming rounds. That was around the time that revolvers became obsolete for cop work.
I believe our retraining based upon scientific data from US DOJ was about two weeks.
Bad guys can soak up a lotta lead. Add drugs on board, and even biology can be slightly cheated.
There is no such thing as cheating in gunfights. Getting behind a barrier (tactical retreat) is a lot more wise than trading rounds with a bad guy.
I remember those days, but they were about 35 years ago for me. In the mid '80's, we were agency disabused of the Weaver stance, combat crouch, isosceles hold, deliberate aim, and all that went with it. We were retrained with hip point, shoulder point, and aiming at 15 yards. For many reasons, we never qualified beyond 15 yards. Most importantly, tactics evolved: the primary objective was not dying. Learning how to avoid bullets became more important that hitting threats. We were taught to identify suitable barriers that are common. Trading our lives for bad guys' lives was not a suitable outcome. ANY hit on a bad guy was a good hit. Also, hits in groups were not as efficacious as hits inches apart. Speed to battery and speed to shots on threats were required. Misses were considered good if they prevented incoming rounds. That was around the time that revolvers became obsolete for cop work.
I believe our retraining based upon scientific data from US DOJ was about two weeks.
Bad guys can soak up a lotta lead. Add drugs on board, and even biology can be slightly cheated.
There is no such thing as cheating in gunfights. Getting behind a barrier (tactical retreat) is a lot more wise than trading rounds with a bad guy.
Hi mike campbell,
At the distance of 90+% of all gunfights and at the designed distance of a Chief (belly gun), are laser sights beneficial? Would they be used at very close distance?
I've never used laser sights, which is why I'm inquiring. I do know point shooting. Were a bad guy intending to flat line me at a distance that I could touch him, it'd be hip point.
At the distance of 90+% of all gunfights and at the designed distance of a Chief (belly gun), are laser sights beneficial? Would they be used at very close distance?
I've never used laser sights, which is why I'm inquiring. I do know point shooting. Were a bad guy intending to flat line me at a distance that I could touch him, it'd be hip point.
TomkinsSP
Member
I am a Luddite and a dinosaur, so I don't play with lazers. But, I do note that the green ones use twice the energy of the red ones (surprise, surprise, surprise Sergeant Carter, this 100 watt bulb is brighter than this 60 watt bulb). Also IF I were to mount a lazer I think I would set it parallel to the bore and accept the fact it is a half inch below, or a half inch below and a quarter inch to the right of POI rather than create a convergence point that is effective at a particular distance but increasingly out of sync with distance. JMO.
Your points are well taken, however, the subject title of the OP was Accuracy of a Model 36, which is a Chief's special.
I'd NEVER carry a 1911 for self defense (nor ANY .380 Cal PPK style) albeit I have a few 1911s, and then a few more "accurized". It is a personal preference by each persons individual experiences and preferences. This is just MY personal preference. Like it is said ... whatever works for you !
If I'm found dead it will not be because my Chief failed me or I did not hit my mark with it.
All you say rings relatively true, bad guys are usually come in twos or more, but when they happen upon a guy with deadly intent to defend himself and property and cool under fire, the majority turn tale and run (if they are still capable of running) ... especially when they come up against an ex-US Serviceman or an OLD GUY, to whom "FOREVER" could be as long as short as tomorrow to only about 10 years, max. Uh, uuh ... I know what you're thinking .... Did he fire five or only four" (cliche adjusted for a 5-shot Chief)"
PS: a fully loaded 5906 or a Sig P229 (in .357 Sig just a tad wider than your P239) with 2 spare mags come with me when I travel more than 10 miles from home or I'm out in the field for work. That aside a Chief is all I need and the primary "go to" self defense gun. To me a Chief special is the classic and quintessential epitome of "cool" ... and a guy that knows how to use it ... "Aces", in my book.
But that's just "me". Anyone and everyone can discuss this subject but only the guys that have been under fire in a bad guy situation, where deadly force is required for self defense, really knows for sure ! Everyone else just surmises or theorizes (fancy words for guess and fantasize) spinning long yarns and pipe dreams of acting like Clint Eastwood in all the fantasized "what if" scenarios. It is NOT like anything you'd ever see or empathize with in a movie.
Oh, BTW, if I were caught cold with my best semi-automatic and any one of my revolvers within the same reach (even though I leave safety off and one in the pipe on all the semi-autos) .... I'd grab the revolver FIRST !
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misswired
Absent Comrade
It's obvious from the pic that operator on the right is shooting your target snubbs.
Sometimes us operational pistoliers do that when we're outta targets. No harm, No foul and it makes the other shooter feel good.
Where did you come up with this? Gang bangers don't run. Many have recent military training, which makes them trained killers.
A Chief Special ain't a target gun. It's a belly gun.
If I were to assess a Chief's accuracy, it'd be at 10'.
Inherently Accurate
Most people will shoot a longer barreled revolver more accurately than a short-barreled revolver because of the longer sight radius. But, as others have said, the two-inch revolver is intended as a personal defense gun, usually at very close range. In the hands of a seasoned shooter, the snubby can turn in some excellent groups at 25 yards.
One problem with the Chief Special is that they tend to have a fine sight picture. As you age and start to need reading glasses, suddenly, all you see is fuzz for sights. I have the identical Model 37 but I train with it by looking over the sights rather than through them.
Most people will shoot a longer barreled revolver more accurately than a short-barreled revolver because of the longer sight radius. But, as others have said, the two-inch revolver is intended as a personal defense gun, usually at very close range. In the hands of a seasoned shooter, the snubby can turn in some excellent groups at 25 yards.
One problem with the Chief Special is that they tend to have a fine sight picture. As you age and start to need reading glasses, suddenly, all you see is fuzz for sights. I have the identical Model 37 but I train with it by looking over the sights rather than through them.
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