Model 41 and CCI stnd velocity ammo

jerrypoller

Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2010
Messages
19
Reaction score
4
I have a Model 41 which cycles Federal Auto Match (1200 fps) and Armscor Precision (???? fps) flawlessly - both bullets are listed as standard velocity. I can't get reliable cycling of CCI Standard Velocity (1070 fps) rounds. I bought my 41 used and assume it has a factory spring. Is there a spring replacement or other modification to the original setup that anyone can recommend so CCI standard velocity ammo will cycle reliably? I've heard that the Model 41 was designed around CCI SV ammo, but can't make it work for me. Thanks.
 
Register to hide this ad
Did you buy the 41 new? Possibly a previous owner installed a heavier recoil spring? I would start with a new O.E. S&W Spring,When I purchased My 41 used before I even shot it I called S&W to order a new spring so I didn't have to worry about how many rounds were on it & S&W sent Me a new spring Free!
 
I was having the same problems on my used 41. Got every spring from Brownells, replaced them all, and all problems went away. It was a cheap fix.
 
I also ordered all new springs from Brownells. Not that I needed them but just the fact I wanted to tune up my 1960 model 41. You should not shoot high velocity ammo through you're 41. The previous owner probably did replace the spring so he could shoot the highier more cheaper bulk high velocity stuff.
Good Luck.
 
I also ordered all new springs from Brownells. Not that I needed them but just the fact I wanted to tune up my 1960 model 41. You should not shoot high velocity ammo through you're 41. The previous owner probably did replace the spring so he could shoot the highier more cheaper bulk high velocity stuff.
Good Luck.

What weight springs did you order. I believe 7.5 lb is the factory spring, but they are also available down to 6 lb and up to 8 lb.
 
I also have the same problem with my 1959 M41 which will not shoot the 36gr ammo without acting up. Even the good Federal in 36gr is a problem so my rifles get it all. When I use the CCI 40gr ammo it works just great in this gun. I did buy it used a month ago now. My M46 does the same thing as well but cycles extremely well on the 40gr ammo. I suspect I should respring both of them.
 
I use CCI Target SV in both my Mod 41's (both 7")as well as my High Standard Trophy, Ruger Mk III (7"), and my Browning Buckmark Lite (7"). It has always functioned perfectly in these pistols. The only problem I have ever had was with a Sig Mosquito (long since traded off) which is widly known as being difficult.

The CCI SV is 40 gr and 1070 fps. At this speed it remains sub-sonic, thus not experiencing flutter due to passing back down through the sound barrier. Frankly I had gone to it before getting the Mod 41's as I was looking for a fair priced ammo that would deliver consistent results.

I would suggest that checking your springs might be a very good idea.
 
I've heard that the Model 41 was designed around CCI SV ammo

This is a common belief but it's not true. S&W began design on what was to become the Model 41 in 1941 and it didn't go into production until 1957. CCI didn't start making rimfire ammunition until 1962 and that was with the Mini-Mag.

Don't get me wrong, the Model 41 and CCI SV go together like they were made for each other and that's all I shoot in mine.
 
I would start with a new O.E. S&W Spring,When I purchased My 41 used before I even shot it I called S&W to order a new spring so I didn't have to worry about how many rounds were on it & S&W sent Me a new spring Free!

I just emailed S&W and they're sending me a new recoil spring - thanks for the suggestion.
 
I've heard that the Model 41 was designed around CCI SV ammo

No. S&W has found that the model 41 shoots standard velocity ammo very well, but it's designed to fuction with any standard or high velocity ammo.

At least that's what the S&W customer service rep told me when I called and asked about ammo recomendations.

I've found if you stick with 40 grain bullets the model 41 will run fine no matter what velocity the ammo is.

I second the suggestion you make sure you have fresh factory recoil and mainsprings in place, and then work from there to tailor the recoil spring to your selected ammo, if needed.

Good luck...
 
You didn't mention failure to extract the spent cartridge but I find most of my problems with shooting CCI SV center around a dirty chamber. After a thourough chamber cleaning, it runs great. Jim
 
You didn't mention failure to extract the spent cartridge but I find most of my problems with shooting CCI SV center around a dirty chamber. After a thourough chamber cleaning, it runs great. Jim
Extraction hasn't been a problem, but ejection has - the brass gets turned sideways as the slide tries to return to battery and gets stuck requiring manually clearing it before I can chamber another round. I have not been as conscientious about cleaning my 41 as I should be. I'll take more care and see if it alleviates the problem. Thanks.
 
I second the suggestion you make sure you have fresh factory recoil and mainsprings in place, and then work from there to tailor the recoil spring to your selected ammo, if needed.

Good luck...

I will change the recoil spring which S&W is sending (free of charge - great customer service), but am not familiar with the mainspring. I've looked at a few parts sites, and they don't mention a mainspring (I assume you're referring to the mainspring I'm familiar with in my 1911s) in their inventory. Can you suggest a source? Thanks.
 
My 41 has been to S&W twice since I bought it two years ago. Ejection problem persisted. I have sent the pistol to Clark for their conversion and for them to straighten out the factory barrel. I'm so tired of embarrassing alibis during matches!

Meanwhile, I use the same CCI SV with my 1967 High Standrd Citation without any trouble. Clean them the same with the same kits.
 
Model 41 Ejection Problem

Davidus,
One of my four M41 barrels did not show a perfectly parallel gap between the barrel and slide. I straightened the barrel extension a hair, but still had some ejection problems. Upon checking the barrel to slide clearance against the other three barrels I noticed that the problem barrel showed a very small gap (tight when checked with a piece of 20 lb. computer paper). I removed the top of the serrations (to about 1/32" wide flats) on the barrel ONLY.
That cured the problem with ejection, and I've gone literally 2 to 3 thousand rounds of CCI standard velocity between failures, and those were failures to feed or failures to fire.
Clark offers optics-only barrels that have the rearward barrel extension completely removed as an aid to more reliable functioning.
There is an article floating about the web about a method of tuning the extractor (Austin Belhert ? - spelling ?). But it looks to be much simpler to try out a new extractor first.
The above might not help in your case, but it worked for this non-gunsmith (Your Mileage My Vary).
 
I have wrestled with a Model 41 and CCI standard velocity ammo. The first round in a magazine often "fumbled" and sort of dribbled out of the gun on ejection. Sometimes the fired case would go right back into the chamber, other times it would jam sideways. If it ejected, it wasn't an energetic ejection at all. I fooled with new springs and installed a new extractor without real success. What I did find, is that it's essential the recess in the breachface is clean of crud. When crud collects and fills in the corners of the recess, extraction fails. Also, I found that a good soaking of the action with Kroil removed a lot of crud and improved functioning. There seemed to be a lot of drag on the hammer. It's an old gun and it probably had 50 years of gunk in it. I'm not quite brave enough to tear it down all the way; hence the Kroil. Finally, make sure the mainspring has some grease on it where is contacts the grip frame. I use SuperLube there and on the rails. So far (knock on wood) the gun continues to be reliable.
 
My pre-A series 41 is very tightly fit and if I use grease on the slide to frame fit point, then cci SV will just barely dribble the rounds out. If I switch to Fed Automatch it will eject more cleanly. With oil on the frame instead of grease CV works fine.

I will comment I was shooting my Beretta 87t and one of my 41s today. Both have the same design for slide and I weighed them. The 87t is 168 grams while the 41 was 192 grams. My 87t is rated for any standard 22 LR ammo yet the 41 I generally fire standard velocity. Either the Beretta has better steel or we are just babying our 41's because the heavier slide should have a lower velocity than the 87t slide.
 
No problems with my 41 and CCI standard velocity, cycles and shoots great.
 
My 1979 manufacture year 41 handles everything I've ever put thru it. I never discriminate, always buy whatevers on sale. From bulk rems to CCI mini-mags, SV to HV,never have had a FTF, FTE, or FTL. It's been a total joy to own since I bought it new in 1980.
 
Peter: If I remember my old Physics books correctly, a larger mass, (weight), is more difficult to stop abruptly then a lighter mass. Hammering on the frame should be more severe with the heavier mass once the slide is launched. Also, springing probably is quite different between the two handguns.
 
S&W 41 Ammo issues

This is based upon my experience and understanding, from shooting S&W 41s for more than 30 years. Have a number of them, of all vintages, but don't consider myself an expert. So, take these comments for what they are worth to you.

I hold the Model 41 in high regard, but agree that they can have issues. I have had good luck these past years with Federal Auto Match, and all CCI 40 grain ammunition. CCI Pistol Match being the most accurate I have ever seen in two of my particular guns (One a 7x,xxx range 5-1/2 inch heavy barrel with thousands and thousands of rounds through it, the other an "optics only" 5 inch 41, offered briefly in the mid-1990s. That one isn't often fired, and has a Leupold "Gilmore" red dot)

1) The Behlert article on punch-peening the Model 41 extractor to change its shape slightly is quite old. I have it somewhere. Tried it once, and didn't find that it made a difference. One observation I would make today -- I believe that currently manufactured extractors are MIM parts, not forged. Trying to dimple them with a punch and move metal that way may cause a fracture, not a reshaping. Haven't tried it.

2) I agree with those that believe that a Model 41 can be used with "high velocity" 40 grain .22 Long Rifle cartridges without causing damage. I agree that using a lighter recoil spring could make using thousands of rounds of high velocity ammunition unadvisable in terms of long term wear, but I have never used a lighter recoil spring. I understand that others are adamant about the issue, and only use standard velocity ammmuntion. If it works well for them, great. If there is data regarding the relative pressure curves/peak pressures/slide velocity - whatever - in a 41 when using high velocity versus standard velocity, I would certainly be interested. There may be a measurable difference, but my next questions would be whether any differences are meaningful in terms of durability of the gun. Note that I am not speaking of HV .22 Shorts in a 41-1, or, for that matter, HV ammo in a Model 46 with the thin slide rails/90 degree angle. My preferred ammo these days is the CCI Standard Velocity, having said all of this.

3) Finally, based upon my experience, I have founf that making sure that there is a clean chamber can resolve some, if not all, of the failure to eject "sideways" jams in a 41. I know from experience in the past with the hard (i.e., "non-sticky") lube used on some brands of ammunition that brushing the chamber well, and even rubbing a thin film of Break-Free on the cartridges before loading seemed to help a lot during matches. I have always thought that, like with plastic shotshells and wads, there can be a thin buildup of the lube around the case mouth, and extending back slightly into the chamber that creates friction and slows the extraction and ejection cycle enough to cause jams. This my not be visible as fouling -- just like the choke tubes in my shotguns can look smooth and clean, but still have a film of plastic in their bore. Back in the day, I recall that Federal ammo, which had a very hard plastic like bullet coating, seemed to cause this in the 41 I shot in Bullseye matches, whereas the Remington Std. velocity ammo with a soft/greasy wax lube didn't seem to be a problem.

I also recall that my 41 would not extract/eject Eley Club ammunition reliably, after I bought a case at a very good price. I tried the same Eley Club in a Model 18 revolver that never had issues, and the Eley stuck in the chamber of that revolver. I assumed it was a case of the brass being soft. Fortunately, I had a Ruger 77/22 that loved the stuff, and still have some left.

I think that any .22 rimfire autoloader that has a chamber and barrel intended for maximum accuracy may be ammunition and fouling intolerant. I do feel bad for people that are willing to spend the kind of money it usually takes to purchase a Model 41 having a bad experience out of the gate. I hope that the comments on this BB of those of us who are die hard Model 41 fans can help some.
 
I get the odd stovepipe with my M41 and my M46 useing the CCI 40 gr ammo but after a good cleaning they both seem to work much better for sure. Its only 2 of my 5 mags that do this problem so I will pay attention to more cleaning of these 2 guns a I do use them the most it seems.
 
I installed a new recoil spring in my 1968 Model 41 and it fires everything without a FTF.

Model41LeftSide.jpg
 
I just emailed S&W and they're sending me a new recoil spring - thanks for the suggestion.

So, the new spring arrived today and I installed it but haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. Funny though, the new spring looks like the same coils, but is just over 1/4" longer than the one installed in the pistol when I bought it a few years back. I would have thought it would be the same length. Since it's longer, can I assume it will be even harder for SV ammo to cycle the slide properly? I should be able to try it this weekend and can report back next week.
 
Jeff's comments were spot on. I noticed a friend give his chamber a spritz of cleaner then a twirl at the base of the chamber with a .22 brass brush. He then swabbed with a clean patch. he does not use the brass brush through the entire barrel, just the depth of the round; he said more rimfirecentral barrels have been damaged by aggressive cleaning than by anything else!

I think the dry lube accumulates and it's hard to see the crud there.

I'm looking forward to getting the Clark conversion barrel. I've heard great things about them! And I'm sure they will banish the extractor problems.

Good luck. Let us know how you progress.
 
Good luck. Let us know how you progress.

I took my 41 out today and ran CCI SV and Federal Auto Match through it. Still lots of FTF and FTE (stovepipes) with the CCI, and only one or two (out of a couple hundred rounds each) with the Federal. I also disassembled all my magazines and thoroughly cleaned them (thinking the FTF could be aggravated by a magazine problem).

I'm at the point where I'm going to try a lower weight spring to see if it will allow the slide to fully cycle with the lower velocity ammo - I don't have this problem with the higher velocity "standard" rounds, and I don't want to switch to HV ammo if I don't have to. Wolf sells springs down to 6 lbs., so I might try a 6 and a 7 lb. to see what happens. More to come.
 
I'm looking forward to getting the Clark conversion barrel. I've heard great things about them! And I'm sure they will banish the extractor problems.

I have a recent Clark STC barrel on my 41, with mixed results. Initially the gun would only very rarely extract an unfired round. I sent my gun and the Clark barrel to Clark. They supposedly adjusted the extractor and polished the chamber, but from the results I wonder if they even looked at it. No change. The chamber was VERY tight, and I had a local gunsmith ream it. Extraction of unfired rounds is much better, but still fails maybe 20-30% of the time. I make sure to clean the chamber before or after every match.

Having said all that, I absolutely love the Clark barrel and would recommend it to anyone. It is incredibly accurate, and having open space above the chamber makes it extremely easy to clean, to check if the gun is loaded, and to work the slide (especially with the hammer down). I shoot CCI Standard Velocity exclusively and it gives 100% function (except for the extraction issue).

Here is a picture of my 41 with a Leupold DeltaPoint attached (I have since replaced that with a C-More RTS):
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0017A.jpg
    IMG_0017A.jpg
    265.4 KB · Views: 156
Last edited:
My Wolf spring set came yesterday and I took it out today to see if a lighter spring solved the FTE problem. I started with a 7 lb. spring and, while it cycled better than with the standard [brand new replacement from S&W], I still got stovepipes. So, I dropped down to the 6.5 lb. spring and about 150 rounds later only had a couple of FTEject/stovepipes. I also had some FTF problems (the round starts out of the mag, but is caught just below the chamber - I jump it up with a knife point into the chamber and then the slide closes and the round fires), and am trying to isolate it to one or more of my magazines. I also had a few failures to extract since I took the firing pin and extractor out to clean them. I don't want to "gunsmith" the extractor, but wonder if there is anything else I can do to make extraction more reliable. Can it have anything to do with the recoil spring? In any event, I am now shooting CCI SV with enough consistency to keep whats left of my inventory.
 
Back
Top