Model 41 - Is It Normal to Be Very Ammo Fussy?

SWFan27

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My dad recently gave me a S&W Model 41 from 1972. It is in great condition, and he gave me both barrel lengths as well. I currently have the 5 inch installed.

It could not be more accurate, but I am not sure if it is just super ammo particular or if I need to replace the extractor and spring. I have tried several brands of ammo, but it has problems ejecting the casings. Some brands are more problematic than others. The only ammo that functions flawlessly is CCI.

My dad said to try Remington Golden Bullets since those always seem to work for him. So far, I have tried bulk ammo by Aguila, Winchester, Federal Champion and Federal Automatch. I tried CCI at the range today and not a single problem. Is this normal for you M41 owners out there?
 
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Most .22 target pistols are fussy about the ammo used, and the high-end target pistols are more accurate and precise with standard velocity ammo. The fact that yours functions best with high velocity ammo may be a sign that it's time to replace springs.
 
Most .22 target pistols are fussy about the ammo used, and the high-end target pistols are more accurate and precise with standard velocity ammo. The fact that yours functions best with high velocity ammo may be a sign that it's time to replace springs.
I was using CCI Standard Velocity today. I have been thinking it can't hurt to replace a 50 year old spring, but also thought if it works fine with the CCI SV, the spring is probably fine. I might just replace it or have it replaced and see if there is a difference when using cheaper bulk ammo. Thank you for the information. I had not thought much about ammo velocity.
 
Wolff sells a set of reduced power recoil springs for tuning the slide to standard target velocity ammo. I think you get a 7, 6.5, and 6 lb spring. Start with the heavy one, then go lighter until you get proper function.
Brownell’s sells it as the “S&W Model 41 Recoil Calibration Pack“.
It’s $22, comes with the three springs above and three firing pin springs.

Volquartson sells a nice replacement extractor.

Another spring to look at is the hammer spring. The slide has to overcome that spring by cocking the hammer during recoil. Get a spare, try it out, and then clip a half coil at a time, checking for reliable ignition. If you get misfires, you took too much off.

Lastly, once you’ve replaced the extractor, operate the slide slowly by hand to check if the breechblock is aligned with the bore.
At one time at least, if not currently, S&W made replacement breechblocks to adjust the alignment of the cartridge with the bore. Clark Custom Guns sold them, last I heard, to help tune the M41 when used with their match barrels.
The pin that holds the firing pin & spring also holds the breechblock.

Don’t use high velocity ammo! You run the risk of cracking one of your slide arms.
 
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Wolff sells a set of reduced power recoil springs for tuning the slide to standard target velocity ammo. I think you get a 7, 6.5, and 6 lb spring. Start with the heavy one, then go lighter until you get proper function.
Brownell’s sells it as the “S&W Model 41 Recoil Calibration Pack“.
It’s $22, comes with the three springs above and three firing pin springs.

Volquartson sells a nice replacement extractor.

Another spring to look at is the hammer spring. The slide has to overcome that spring by cocking the hammer during recoil. Get a spare, try it out, and then clip a half coil at a time, checking for reliable ignition. If you get misfires, you took too much off.

Lastly, once you’ve replaced the extractor, operate the slide slowly by hand to check if the breechblock is aligned with the bore.
At one time at least, if not currently, S&W made replacement breechblocks to adjust the alignment of the cartridge with the bore. Clark Custom Guns sold them, last I heard, to help tune
M41 when used with their match barrels.
The pin that holds the firing pin & spring also holds the breechblock.

Don’t use high velocity ammo! You run the risk was of cracking one of your slide arms.
Thank you for that valuable information. I am just learning about my new and unexpected treasure. The M41 was a birthday gift from my dad. He said he had planned to give me his old M17 since I had been talking about getting a 22 to save money at the range, but I just bought a new 617 back in June.
 
Ammo in a semi auto does TWO things. It fires out he projectile, and it operates the mechanism. That’s asking a lot from what is basically a tiny little antique cartridge.

If you got on a Boing 747 tomorrow to fly across the ocean, how comfortable would you be knowing the just fueled up with the cheapest fuel from Central America that they could dredge up?

Junk in. Junk out. Why people waste their time and money on cheap junk, bulk 22 ammo, I’ll never understand. You were GIVEN a very fine, very expensive target pistol. Break down and buy decent CCI ammo.
 
Yes, it is. Most 22s can be picky about what they shoot best and some of the cheap ammo is so inconsistent and unreliable it will cause failures in any semiauto. It also can cause a lot of misfires even in a revolver. If your gun works well with CCI standard velocity count your blessings and buy it in bulk. It might cost a little more than the cheap bulk stuff but is reasonably priced and has much more reliable priming than the cheap stuff. In most M41s it is very accurate too.

Unfortunately, my M41 has about a 2 - 3% failure rate with the CCI standard velocity. It has enough power to eject the empty but not enough to get the slide back far enough to pick up the new round. Instead of getting a bang I dry fire the gun. I tried replacing the extractor, replacing the spring, keeping the gun lightly lubed, heavily lubed, etc. Its a little less accurate but CCI Blazer works nearly 100% so that's what I use.

I bought a 3D printed buffer that prevents the trigger guard from getting beat up but would be using high velocity ammo even if I had not found the buffer. The 41 was designed around standard velocity ammo but the manual says 22 LR and I know people that have shot thousands of rounds of HV ammo without a buffer and did not break anything. HV is harder on the gun than the SV ammo it was designed for but the only reports of breaking the gun I have read were from shooters with 25,000+ rounds of ammo going through the gun. This is strictly a range gun. Worst case is the gun breaks and you have to get it repaired, its not like your life depends on it.

Don't keep jumping through hoops trying to get your gun to work with ammo the internet says you should use when your gun. In your case you are lucky in that if you ask the internet what ammo you should use in a M41 it will tell you CCI standard velocity which your gun likes.
 
My dad recently gave me a S&W Model 41 from 1972. It is in great condition, and he gave me both barrel lengths as well. I currently have the 5 inch installed.

It could not be more accurate, but I am not sure if it is just super ammo particular or if I need to replace the extractor and spring. I have tried several brands of ammo, but it has problems ejecting the casings. Some brands are more problematic than others. The only ammo that functions flawlessly is CCI.

My dad said to try Remington Golden Bullets since those always seem to work for him. So far, I have tried bulk ammo by Aguila, Winchester, Federal Champion and Federal Automatch. I tried CCI at the range today and not a single problem. Is this normal for you M41 owners out there?

SWfan27,

The S&W M41 is the most ammo sensitive gun I own and pretty much the most sensitive I know about! Yours is no different. Almost all M41's work best with CCI STANDARD velocity ammo. Not only is the SV CCI 40 grain incredibly reliable in the M41, it is also the absolute most accurate - at least for me.

Don't even waste your time with Winchester, Remington, etc. as it will probably be a jam-o-matic. With the CCI 40 Gr. SV which I shoot at least 100 rounds / week, I can not remember the last time I had a jam. Yes, an occasional failure to fire due to a bad primer, but never a jam. I had two old boxes of Remington SV target 40 gr. ammo left and made the mistake a few months back in trying to shoot it up. It was very frustrating to get through and I never opened up the second box. I will use them in a M18.

Oh - and BTW there maybe a few who have the RARE M41 that say it feeds anything - they are the exception IMHO. Also, I would stay away from HV ammo. No need to beat up the gun and the HV ammo is less accurate in the M41 anyway.
 
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I don't have a 41 but I have a High Standard 10-X that's super finicky. CCI Std. Velocity works well but I've found Aquila Std. Velocity works too and it's a good bit cheaper. At least that might be an alternative for you to try.
 
Save the CCI Standard Velocity ammo for your model 41, anything else and especially ammo that jams in the model 41 shhot in the 617. You Won't waste any ammo and you keep that model 41 humming after changing the springs as suggested. A 50 yr old pistol it's probably due for those change out of the springs so do them all at the same time. Above all any high velocity ammo goes in the 617.
 
Do have a Model 46.
Only shoot CCI Standard Speed.
Speaking of Online Advice - my No.1 Problem Child is my Beretta 21a.
Malfunction Junction!
Online Hero to the Rescue says, Punch!
Get yo self some of that new magic, Federal Punch!
So I got some. My 21a won’t cycle it.
It does shoot well in other guns, Ruger LCP, SIG P22, Model 63, etc.
 
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There's lots of good info above, but I'll just say it outright:

The 41 is notoriously temperamental about ammo. There have been many tales of its ammo issues over the years. Some of them behave nicely, but others seem to drive their owners batty.

Mine is a contrarian. Common wisdom says CCI Standard offers the best results. Mine hates it. Recurring jams. It used to shoot Remington Target without a hiccup, but that ammo vanished and Remington today isn't the Remington of olde.

These days, I use greasy instead of waxy ammo. Eley Target (their low end stuff) does quite well, but I still get an occasional jam. The frequency depends on which barrel I'm using, if the gun is well lubed, and clean but not too clean. Sometimes I think phases of the moon matter as well.

It's a picky thing. A love/hate relationship. When it's good, it's very good. When it's bad, it's incorrigible.
 
My dad cleaned and lubed it before we took it to the range a couple weeks ago. It has maybe 150-200 rounds through it since then. it is not dirty, and it is lubed.

I use grease on pistol slides and found that slowed down the action on some of my 22s. Now, 22s get oil.
 
Yes, I like a clean gun and always clean mine after shooting them - after each range session. That said, the M41's issue is more ammo sensitivity than being dirty. At times when training new shooters I have fired my M41 at the range letting 3-4 people shoot it and firing hundreds of rounds - runs just fine as long as the CCI SV ammo is being used. Of course cleaning won't hurt either. :p
 
Something from 1972, the first thing to do, is replace the recoil spring and the hammer spring.

My 1968 M46, all original springs, was a malfunction junction. First thing that helped was replacing the recoil spring with a Wolff "factory"

LV7Wg0a.jpeg


as you can see the original recoil spring had taken a set, and that caused timing issues, such as stove piping. I replaced the recoil springs in my M46 and M41. I carried that used M41 spring in my kit, and at one indoor match, a fellow shooter with a Godawful old M41 was having failures to feed/eject. His recoil spring was shorter than my used M41 spring, when we installed my used spring, his pistol was able to function. Since then, I keep a new "factory" Wolff in the box, just in case.


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Another problem, the more rounds downrange, the more unreliable both the M46 and my 1988 M41 became in feed, extraction, ignition. Called S&W they were out of OEM factory mainsprings. Numrich claimed to have new ones. Ordered a few.

The Numrich springs looked like someone cut them from coil wire with a cutter. All of different length, the ends sharp, not nice and ground, like the factory springs. However, put the longest one in the M46 and it worked for a time. Then back to stove pipes and failures to ignite.

Called S&W again, still out of mainsprings. But there were vendors on ebay claiming to have new OEM mainsprings, and I purchased two.

jOZ0d2I.jpeg


In comparison, the worn Numrich spring was short, and I could tell from the effort it took to cock the hammer, that the "new" OEM was considerably stronger. I also replaced the 1988 M41 mainspring, and the new one was stiffer. Which is all to the good.


xAXDbQb.jpeg


Just as the recoil spring, the mainspring has an effect on the timing of the action. The slide has to push down the hammer. For proper timing, that mainspring has to be factory strong.

Function has improved. But, everyone has problems with the reliability of 22lr. Every Bullseye Pistol competitor experiences frequent alibis due to ****** 22lr. This is a cup of alibi rounds. If the competitor has an alibi, a Range Safety Officer comes on by, verifies the alibi, takes the alibi round, and gives it to the Match Director. Who places it in this cup:

wQjGjIR.jpeg


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It is very apparent that 22lr is over represented.

As a general rule, the expensive "Pistol match" is more function reliable than the cheap stuff. I am using the last of SK HV HP in Regionals. That ammunition has been much more reliable than CCI SV, but still have the occasional function failure with the stuff. Everyone has complaints about CCI SV, not uncommon to have a malfunction every 50 rounds.

BNUffjS.jpeg


Something else, the "bolt", part number 6508" (firing pin block) in the slide fills with oil. Maybe I over lubricate, but I found mine filled with oil, and that reduces the velocity of the firing pin impact on the rim. I removed the bolt from the M46, found it swimming in oil. I cleaned everything out, and re installed. Now I am in the habit, after a match, of blowing the firing pin channel out with compressed air. You have to push the firing pin forward, as when it is in normal rearward position, it seems to be a gas block. So I push it forward with a chop stick, and blow the channel out from the front. I hope it does something function wise. At least I am blowing the rat's nests, and spider webs out of the firing pin channel!

ZSqdl8j.jpeg


I asked the unit gunsmith of the All Guard shooting team what was the major source of unreliability in a M41, and he told me, the tightness of the bolt. He had more M41's come in where the bolt was loose, and shifted/tilted during ignition and extraction. A loose bolt causes the case to fall off the bolt face. His cure, was to mechanically tighten the bolt channels with a punch. Don't do this unless you know what you are doing! You may ruin the slide.

With a rimfire pistol, keep the recoil springs and mainsprings new. Don't think 20 year, 50 year old springs have the same strength as the did. They don't. No semi auto pistol has the ignition energy of a rifle. My SK STD Plus is 100% reliable in my various match rifles, and the stuff is unreliable in my autopistols. Powder combustion is hugely dependent on how much energy and flame comes out of that primer. Weak primer flame, weak powder combustion. Primer combustion is complicated, but for you, weak ignition system, weak primer combustion. Period, end of story.

Something else. Primer cake is a mix. And it is mixed by hand. And each batch of primer cake is plus or minus, and within each batch, whatever is spooned into your rim, is plus or minus. I was told that cash rewards are given to the person making the most consistent batch (for the day?). However, who get the next cash award seems to up to luck. The process is too variable to understand. So, in each cartridge box, there will be variation in primer cake sensitivity, and in primer energy. And you can't tell which one is strong and sensitive, versus weak and insensitive, by looking at the rim. Even if you had X ray vision, you would not be able to tell. Anyway, primers vary. Nothing is perfect, nothing is complete, and nothing is finished. All you can do, is keep the mechanical condition of your pistol in new condition.

And test different ammunition. If you find one lot that is reliable, buy all of that lot you can. Drain your bank account, max out your credit card, etc. Might be a long time till you find a reliable lot again.
 
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