Model 469 Question

[phantom06]

Hi all,
I purchased a S&W 469 new back in the late 1980s while stationed overseas. Took it to the range and it would only fire about 50% of the time. Hammer won't fall completely. Had a gunsmith look at it at the time but the issue was never corrected and the pistol was tucked away in the back on my gun safe. "Found it" recently and started making some enquiries. S&W had some recalls for this model but not for my serial number range (mine is TAZ88XX).

I have friends who have this same model and they've had zero issues with theirs. Frustrating since I bought this new and it hasn't had 10 rounds through it.

I did speak with someone at S&W and they suggested grinding off the half-cock stop -- citing it was used on earlier models but wasn't an active feature on the 469.

Any advice? Grinding things off sounds a bit off -- particularly from the manufacturer -- but I'm not a gunsmith so can't really comment. I would like to get it working properly.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[AgentM]

Send it back to S&W, and let Customer Service handle it. Could be a broken trigger bar, or even a hammer/sear problem. The half-cock stop, to my knowledge, WAS a feature on the earlier guns. I owned a 469 briefly a long time back. It worked, but it's firing-line performance didn't merit the expenditure of further time, ammo, and range fees.

Really - call CS. They may even pay the freight. Outside of S&W, there are few (if any) options for having a second-generation gun like the 469 serviced. Grinding off a part certainly isn't mentioned in the factory service manual, or taught in S&W armorer school.

 

[grif684]

The half cock notch on the hammer of first and second gen Smiths could be a real problem at times, especially if you wanted to switch out your hammer spring for a lighter weight, the hammer would inevitably fall to the half cock position regularly upon firing. I never quite understood why they used this feature on the 69 series second gens due to the hammer being bobbed, but I have a late 669, same issue as yours, and I installed a later 6906 hammer without the half cock and have never had a problem since, you may want to try that route. You can use the blued bobbed hammer from most third gen compact 9mm (6904, 3914, etc.).

 

[shawn mccarver]

Hi all,
I purchased a S&W 469 new back in the late 1980s while stationed overseas. Took it to the range and it would only fire about 50% of the time. Hammer won't fall completely. Had a gunsmith look at it at the time but the issue was never corrected and the pistol was tucked away in the back on my gun safe. "Found it" recently and started making some enquiries. S&W had some recalls for this model but not for my serial number range (mine is TAZ88XX).

I have friends who have this same model and they've had zero issues with theirs. Frustrating since I bought this new and it hasn't had 10 rounds through it.

I did speak with someone at S&W and they suggested grinding off the half-cock stop -- citing it was used on earlier models but wasn't an active feature on the 469.

Any advice? Grinding things off sounds a bit off -- particularly from the manufacturer -- but I'm not a gunsmith so can't really comment. I would like to get it working properly.

Thanks,
Chris

This is an issue for S&W, not your grinder.

 

[cpeblue]

I with you Grif, the half cock failure was the reason a lot of folks hated Smith autos back then. My 2nd gen guns have 3rd gen hammers in them and don't miss a beat. It makes the DA pull a lot smoother also.

 

[99savage308]

I have a question. What the heck is the half cock notch for? Be it a Smith auto or a Colt auto. Please someone explain ?

 

[phantom06]

Thanks for all your replies. I've written S&W about the matter and will let you know their reply.

 

[cpeblue]

I have a question. What the heck is the half cock notch for? Be it a Smith auto or a Colt auto. Please someone explain ?

The M39 had no firing pin drop safety, so when you moved the safety from safe to fire the sear would catch the hammers half cock notch keeping the hammer from resting on the firing pin. The M39-2 and the 2nd gen guns had the firing pin drop safety making the half cock notch a worthless trouble maker.

 

[grif684]

The M39 had no firing pin drop safety, so when you moved the safety from safe to fire the sear would catch the hammers half cock notch keeping the hammer from resting on the firing pin. The M39-2 and the 2nd gen guns had the firing pin drop safety making the half cock notch a worthless trouble maker.

The 39-2 didn't have the firing pin safety, it was introduced on second gen models. The reason for the half cock, as it was explained to me, was to stop the hammer from striking the firing pin when manually decocking the pistol by holding the hammer spur with your thumb while pulling the trigger (ala 1911) in the event that you lost your grip on the hammer after releasing the trigger, it would stop at half cock rather than striking the firing pin and causing a negligent discharge. Oddly enough, the models with safety/decockers really never needed it, as the barrel of the safety blocks the hammer anyway, and I certainly can't understand how it lasted during second gen production, only to be finally eliminated on the third gens.....

 

[phantom06]

S&W sent me a prepaid FedEx label and my 469 is on its way back to the factory. Pretty impressive they'll stand behind a product that was purchased ~1989.

 

[phantom06]

Update on my Model 469.
I received a phone call from S&W on Tuesday. The rep was looking for additional info regarding my issue with the pistol. He started described hammer-bounce and telling me this was a normal issue with this model -- i.e. would work properly with live rounds but if dry-fired, the hammer would bounce back far enough to engage the half-cock notch. I told him it wasn't hammer-bounce since the weapon failed to fire 75%+ percent of the time. He then went on to describe issues with the half-cock notch on this series and wanted permission to grind off the notch, if it became necessary.

My pistol was delivered by FedEx yesterday afternoon. I'm not sure exactly what they did but the work order listed the following:
Repaired: Complete Update
Repaired: Replace Sear Release Lev
Repaired: Replace Springs as Needed
Repaired: Range Tested/Meets Spec

I put some dummy rounds in the mag and cycled through a magazine. Hammer fell properly 100% of the time. Just back from the range and fired 4 x 12-shot mags without issue. Not my best shot grouping. I was trying to get it to not run properly. Never skipped a beat.

Overall a positive experience with S&W. Total cost to me? ZERO. Not many places left that will back their product to this degree.

 

[SG-688]

The M39 had no firing pin drop safety, so when you moved the safety from safe to fire the sear would catch the hammers half cock notch keeping the hammer from resting on the firing pin. The M39-2 and the 2nd gen guns had the firing pin drop safety making the half cock notch a worthless trouble maker.

Also for the record, this is absolutely not accurate for M-39 pattern pistols with the half-cock notch.

From hammer down, safety on - moving the safety to the fire position lowers the hammer to the slide.

 

[Helderberg]

Owned a 469 years ago and had to sell it. Have regretted moving it and have tried to buy it back, but the new owner will not part with it. I ended up buying a Sig 239 in 9mm but still want a 469 in my small group.
Very happy for you that you got your gun sorted out, and S&W backed up the gun so well.
Be safe, Frank.

 

[cpeblue]

Also for the record, this is absolutely not accurate for M-39 pattern pistols with the half-cock notch.

From hammer down, safety on - moving the safety to the fire position lowers the hammer to the slide.

As the kids say today "What Ever". I only have 2 2nd Gen guns and I found the the halfcock to be a PITA. I removed it from both of them and now they work every time all the time. Your mileage my vary .

 

[phantom06]

I was pretty impressed that they fixed everything and paid shipping both ways.

Nice little pistol. I somewhat regret leaving it sitting in my safe for 20+ years. The other day was really the first time I've fired it since 1989. A much more satisfactory experience than the first time around.

Apparently the S&W folks were a bit curious about all the European proof marks all over it. I bought it at the base rod-and-gun club while stationed in Germany.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I have a question. What the heck is the half cock notch for? Be it a Smith auto or a Colt auto. Please someone explain ?

The purpose of a half-cock notch is to arrest forward movement of the hammer if it falls without the trigger being pulled. This can happen during manual cocking, if it slips, or if the sear were to fail (very rare) while the hammer is cocked.

The reason the half cock notch is important is that if the hammer falls and it strikes the firing pin on a 1st Gen S&W auto or a Pre-Series 80 Colt, the pistol will discharge. If you were not pulling the trigger, such could lead to injury or death if the pistol were not pointed in a safe direction at the moment it occurred.

Second Generation and newer S&W autos and Series 80 Colts have an additional feature to guard against this. The additional feature is the "firing pin block" which is located in the slide. It blocks firing pin movement unless the trigger is pulled.

Once the firing pin blocks were in the pistols, S&W eliminated the half-cock notch from its pistols and Colt changed its half cock to a quarter cock safety shelf, having the same purpose as the half-cock notch, but not holding the hammer back as far as the original half-cock notch. Why? Because if the hammer falls from half-cock, the 1911 will fire, but there is not enough momentum to fire the pistol if the hammer falls from the newer quarter cock safety shelf.

Neither pistol should EVER be carried in half-cock. It is not safe, and the half cock notch is easily sheared on the 1911. I have seen it happen when the shooter's elbow smacked the holstered pistol on the back of the hammer. In half-cock, the 1911 hammer is not protected by the beavertail of the grip safety and is subject to abuse. Due to the beavertail of the grip safety, the hammer is protected from such a blow in full cock, and can only be driven backwards if struck. In half-cock, however, a blow can drive the hammer against the notch causing it to shear. Never carry on half-cock. Ever.