MODEL 52-2 FEEDING PROBLEMS

[win1873]

A few months ago I purchased a mid 70's vintage Model 52-2 in 98% and two mags. I posted here to ask for loads and do's and don'ts regarding this gun. I learned a lot from your responses and wanted to share my experiences to date with the gun. A little back story on the gun. It was brought in to my local gun shop where I hang out and the gun was sent to S & W for repair. It came back with a new extractor and full length recoil spring. The 'clipped' spring originally in the gun and the replaced broken extractor were in the box when sent back to the gun shop. Owner never picked up his gun after repeated tries and it was sold to me.

I am using Hornady HBWC and 2.8grs. of Bullseye. I am having failure to feed issues that have been driving me nuts! At first I had the factory replaced 'un-clipped' recoil spring in the gun and the above mentioned load. I would get FTF half of the time. I increased the load to 3.0 of Bullseye and still got FTF issues but not as bad. In all the FTF issues, the round was half in the mag and half out and hung up on the barrel.

I decided to get down and dirty with the gun and inspect the magazines and barrel. Barrel looked good with no burrs or rough spots on the breech end. With dummy .38s, I loaded the magazines and pushed out each round, and on one mag, once the round cleared the rear lips, it went flying. The other mag the round got hung up as one lip was a little longer in front. This problem was corrected with a file. The nylon followers on both were polished on all contact points with a dremel polishing wheel. Mags were reassembled, each loaded with dummies, and put into the gun. As fast as I could pull and release the slide, all rounds fed and ejected on one mag, FTF on the 4th round in the other. I marked the mags and went to the range.

At this point the 'clipped' spring is now in the gun. The 'good' mag worked like a champ. The bad one, every 4th round FTF, every time!
Back to the bench. I read where someone had shortened the pin in the follower as it was to long. This I did, and cycling by hand as fast as I could, the bad magazine worked! Today at the range, I put the un-clipped spring in and used loads with 2.8 of Bullseye. Not only did I still have FTF issues, sometimes the slide would not catch the rim and miss completely, and several times the slide would not lock open on both mags! ARRRRRGH!!!

As it stands now, I am convinced the new spring is stiff and not always recoiling back far enough to properly catch the round and feed it properly. Remember, the gun worked well with the one mag, using the clipped spring. So I still have to find the right combination of load and clipped or un-clipped recoil spring for this gun. I was so sure I had the answer before, but it's an ongoing thing and hey, this is why we shoot, to solve these little mysteries that perplex us! Any thoughts/opinions?

 

[minconrevo]

The 52 that I had years back was persnickety evil regarding it's ammo. The 148 gr HBWC had to have a roll crimp done just so. It was necessary to trim the cases every couple firings. Additionally it seemed best to only run one brand of brass cases. The powder I think I used was Bullseye, 2.7 gr, but not positive about that.

I do not recall any recoil spring or magazine issues. As light as the loads to be shot are, the recoil spring should last a long time, probably 3-5,000 rounds.

I would not think it a good idea to cut springs or run loads hotter than mid-range.

 

[win1873]

I realize that I can't use 'hot' loads with this gun. At most I will use is 3.0 of Bullseye or a similar load with a different powder. I am not a fan of clipped springs but in small increments and with this light a load I am willing to experiment within reason.

 

[mstuhr]

Howdy

Howdy W,
I had problems like you describe. It drove me nuts. I had three mags and all of them did it to some degree. I tried different loads but found the front part of the magazine lips were open too much.
A buddy showed me a near new Colt in .38 special and I was amazed how the rounds snapped in.
I set mine to where they did the same and all my problems went away. I dont remember the last time I had a FTF.
I set them at .356 I.D..
This may or may not help you but it sure made my 52 reliable.
I shoot 3. of 231 and a Remington 148 HBWC.
My luck was I had a magazine that was bought old, rusty and cheap. I adjusted it first figuring I was not out much if it didn't work. Once it did I set them all up @ .356 and all of them went to work.
Best of luck
Mike

 

[win1873]

Mike,

Thank you for the info! I purchased a used 52-2 magazine at a gun show yesterday and I am going to try adjusting the lips to your dimensions on one of them and see what happens. Will keep you all posted!

 

[boatbum101]

I too would suggest mag lip adjustment . The newer mags w/ plastic followers almost always need some " tweaking " . I do trim my cases to 1.145" , seat HBWC's flush & taper crimp to .369 . Seems to work for me . Stock recoil spring is 8lb & as long as gun is in stock configuration should function . Wolff does make a 7lb spring . Just checked 5 of my mags & rear lips run from .328 to .348 . You could also try replacing mag springs on the problem mags . I'd also check to see if mag lips or ejector are dragging on the slide . Low recoil impulse + inhibited slide travel = FTF . IMHO 1) Load too light , 2) Recoil spring too stiff , 3) Slide dragging on something impedeing full travel , or some combo of these . That & round not being released from mag early enough to chamber fully . Hope this helps . I'd not go hotter than 3.0 BE on your loads . My 52-2 prefers 3.1 - 3.2grs W231 , with 3.6grs VVN340 running a very close second .

 

[RGPM1A]

The 52 that I had years back was persnickety evil regarding it's ammo. The 148 gr HBWC had to have a roll crimp done just so. It was necessary to trim the cases every couple firings. Additionally it seemed best to only run one brand of brass cases. The powder I think I used was Bullseye, 2.7 gr, but not positive about that.

I do not recall any recoil spring or magazine issues. As light as the loads to be shot are, the recoil spring should last a long time, probably 3-5,000 rounds.

I would not think it a good idea to cut springs or run loads hotter than mid-range.

+1 on the roll crimp and use of one brand of cases advise. A simple taper crimp leaves a sharp edge that will catch the bottom of the barrel feed ramp. I seat Hornady 148 grain HBWC flush with the case mouth and put a roll crimp on my ammo so the case mouth is actually a tad rolled over the front of the bullet. After I started doing this I never again had any feeding problems unless the gun really, really needed to be cleaned - like after 300 rounds. Don't get too crazy with the roll crimp though because you will have pressure, case life and/or accuracy problems.

 

[win1873]

Thought I would bring everyone up to speed since my last posting regarding feeding problems in my 52-2. My last response to this post, I had just acquired a third used magazine and took Mike's suggestion to measure and adjust (if need be) one of my mag's to .356 I.D. on the front lips. Upon measuring all three, all three were very, very close to that I.D. and I decided not to do anything. I then ordered a Wolff 7lb recoil spring and 3 extra power magazine springs and installed them. I then worked up 4 loads of 15 rounds each (five for each mag) using 4 different powders and a max of 750 fps using lead HBWC's. Powders used were Bullseye, Unique, Titegroup and Universal Clays. Each magazine was numbered 1, 2 and 3 for record purposes. After shooting all the rounds (60 total) I did not have one failure to feed (finally!), but mags 1 & 2 failed to lock the slide open every time. Mag 3 worked perfectly every time! The most accurate load was 3.4 of Universal Clays.

Got home and inspected the mags. All have the plastic follower. #3's follower seemed to be more positive in place with no play front to back and side to side. 1 and 2's follower's had more play in them. Manually cycling the slide, the follower would engage the hold open half of the time on 1 and 2. Decided that I would attach a thin piece of metal shim to the top of the tab that engages the hold open and both mags worked when cycling the slide manually.

So one more trip to the range this weekend hopefully and maybe get 100% function this time. My only concern is that the metal shims will hold up and not come off. I used industrial strength Loctite super glue and hope that holds! Wish me luck!

 

[nealwhiteportfolio]

Has anyone had--and solved--failure of slide to go snap fully into battery for the first round in a model 952? Whether dropping the slide on a new full magazine or retracting the slide by hand and letting it fly, my new model 952 frequently fails to put the slide completely forward &/or to seat the first found. I notice that the magazine (all of my three) has a gap and play when seated in the handle. Feedback,please!

 

[TSQUARED]

My older 52-1 functioned perfectly with 2.8 gr. Bullseye behind the Remington 148 gr. LHBWC seated flush with a very light roll crimp applied. I believe your problem is with the ammo rather than with the gun.

 

[Bohonkie]

Are these threads still active? Hope so. I have been experiencing FTF problems (bullet nose end too high) in my 52-2 (1973) lately. Using original factory mags (steel follower). Talked to a fellow 52 owner at range today who told me to adjust the lips on the mags. Makes sense. He said there is an article somewhere on just how to adjust the lips but danged if I can find it. Reading the posts, it appears the front lips need to be around .356 (ID) and the rear somewhere between .328 and .348. I found another feeding post on this site where they guy said he closed his up (front or rear?) by .020". Anyone have advice? Anyone hear of such an article? I am planning on buying the Wolfe mag springs and maybe also the 7# recoil spring. The former might help the feeding; the latter might allow for lower power loads. Many thanks -

 

[Bohonkie]

Thanks, 4barrel. I have five mags - all the same. When I use the HBWC bullets I almost never get a FTF. For the first time, today I tried SBWC bullets and they won't feed from the first loading through all shots (well, one did feed out of the 20+ tried). I am using a roll crimp. I'll try shortening some cases to see it that makes a difference. The SBWC advises to seat to the crimp groove (about 1/32" of the nose sticks out) but, as you probably know, they loaded mags won't even go into the gun! I seated them the same as I have the HBWC and the mags load but FTF. Maybe I shoudl just stick with HBWCs...

 

[DeBro]

Extraction, ejecting, feeding with the Model 52

S&W Model 52

There was a time when the United States badly wanted to beat the Russians in every way, any way, whatever it took. The Russians had established some embarrassingly good records in international marksmanship competition.

With an eye on upcoming international competition, Smith & Wesson developed a pistol that might be helpful in beating anything other countries could come up with. Of course, this was a big deal - to have a pistol designed specifically for international target shooting competitions.

M. Sgt. Bill Blankenship, among other Americans, soon set some new world records using the pistol made by Smith & Wesson called the Model 52. The men received a great deal of news coverage for their efforts. Even I heard about it.

In 1963, I bought a Model 52 for my personal use since the Corps only issued us .38 revolvers for center fire competition against everybody else using semi- automatics. (We didn’t do too badly with the revolvers, though!)

Smith& Wesson stopped making the Model 52 some 25 years ago. It is now an expensive, ≈$1250 in 2015, heirloom so I passed it on to one of my sons. He was delighted to have it but soon I noticed he might be having some problems with it. Finally, he admitted it; the pistol was either not extracting or not ejecting its spent cases properly. This matter embarrassed him before his friends as he tried to proudly show off his heirloom weapon.

In time we learned my son and his friends were doing something considered pretty simple; they were not gripping the pistol adequately. (They weren’t trained in military ways.)

The Model 52, designed to enable victories in extreme competition, has been manufactured to critical specifications. The pistol absolutely depends upon the shooter gripping the pistol firmly, very firmly, (a matter manufacturers prefer to call a “normal” grip) because that much resistance provided by the shooter allows the the limited power of the recoil to be used properly, allowing the extractor and the ejector, etc., to work sufficiently to spit out spent cartridges and more.

Using a "limp wrist” grip on most any pistol takes away some measure of the force needed for the pistol’s slide to fully cycle on recoil. The Model 52 pistol is so precisely tuned as to be almost underpowered. Attendant to this sort of power management issue is the kind of ammunition specified for the pistol. In this case, the Model 52 is chambered for only the .38 Special Midrange Wadcutter, a round the pistol's mechanism is carefully tuned.

The Model 52 specifications are so tight that the wadcutter rounds used must be flat headed, not rounded in any protruding manner from the cases, and contain 148 grains of gunpowder. (The magazines holds only five rounds each.) These days, local gun shops may not to carry the right kind of wadcutters for the Model 52. The correct kind of ammo is still available from specialty shops. (One known reputable supplier: http:/georgia~arms.com)

So my son had to learn to grip his pistol tightly and to keep his arm stiff so his pistol’s slide might fully cycle. Too some extent, all pistols depend upon the shooters tight grip, although with small caliber rounds, we might get used to a “limp wrist" grip which can be very misleading when switching to larger calibers. (A .45 caliber round fired might be shocking if you aren’t prepared for the recoil effects.)

If you’re interested in the Model 52, see these: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXCakQLg_Sg[/ame] and [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALUlQ75rWb0[/ame]

Recoil is such a mechanical issue that gun manufacturers have gone to great pains to find alternatives, without much success (possibly creating even bigger problems). If you’re interested, take a look here: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/walther-ccp/

Manufacturers today issue instructions specifically related to the way their semi-automatic pistols must be gripped to avoid malfunctions.

 

[Bohonkie]

Thanks, Debro. I did not know that about the Russians being part of the genesis of the 52. I had always thought it was merely because of the popularity (stemming from the post war years) of Bullseye competition where you need a .22, a "mid-range" caliber, and a .45.
I solved my problems by carefully measuring, bending, measuring, etc. the lips (front and rear) of the mags. All work fine now.
I assume you meant 148 grains of bullet weight - I don't think a .38 spcl case will hold 148 grains of "powder" (propellant) of any kind.
Hey, you might be interested in having your son try Remington .38 Wadcutter Target ammo. I have tried every factory WC ammo out there and this is by far the best - rivaling careful handholds. I found an old article in one of the gun rags that tested the 52 using these Remington factory loads. The article said Remington had developed this load using a 52 as the test gun.
Thanks again,
m

 

[DeBro]

You're right; I made a mistake about the grains.

Bohonkie, I'm getting too old, possibly, or too far away from the fun stuff to keep my memories fresh. I'm just glad they didn't use cubits for measurements!

I haven't found Remington Target rounds available in stores near me. There are ample wadcutters that don't fit. With no reasonable supply available, most everybody advised me to sell the gun for parts, a matter that didn't make a lot of sense to me given the heritage of the gun. Finally, a gun show revealed a reputable remanufacturer routinely producing the correct round.

Where do you get your Remington .38 Wadcutter Target ammo?

I appreciate the heads up. Maybe I can avoid repeating the error.

 

[Bohonkie]

I can't believe anyone would tell you to sell such a fine gun as a parts gun. I had mine at the range about a month ago and two of the range officers just went nuts over mine. One of them asked a million questions and looked up 52s for sale on the internet.
I work at Sportsman's Warehouse - that's where I bought the Rem ammo but they haven't had any in stock for a couple of months.
Matt's Bullets has some good WC bullets. I have used Speer 148 gr HBWC as well and they work fairly well. 148 gr solid base WCs do not work at all.
This is one fantastic gun and I'm so glad I have mine. I bought mine from the son-in-law of a retired Army colonel who didn't believe in banks. Unfired, original box, papers, and tools. Receipt from a gun store in Texas, 1973 inside box. I paid $700 - gladly - (5 or 6 years ago).
I'm sure your son appreciates what he has too.

 

[elpac3]

The 52 is a fun gun to shoot and will shoot much better than I. That said, being a one-load, bullseye gun it requires the shoot to use proper firing technique and proper ammo.

As noted above - you cannot limp wrist the 52. It also requires careful follow-through and is very sensitive to heel pressure.

As for ammo, the gun need case-mouth flush seated 148 grain wadcutters. You can use DEWC but optimal accuracy for 50 yard shooting will be had with HBWC over 2.8 grains of Bullseye powder. I have found my gun likes Hornaday HBWC. Use a taper crimp and you should be good to go.

 

[Bohonkie]

Thanks for the info. I have tried DEWCs in mine but the mag won't even fit into the gun. Moot because, as you say, the HBWCs are the most accurate. I am going to try the Hornadys! I've been using a roll crimp and have had no problems at all but I'm also going to try a taper crimp. At least with the Speer bullets, I have not found Bullseye to be the most accurate but I will surely use it with the Hornadys.
Everything both of you have said here regarding firing technique is certainly true. I have been shooting bullseye for over 30 years and have no problems at all with the 52 but I have seen new shooters go through an adjustment period. I have a Model 41 and a Series 80 Colt Gold Cup Trophy and a Colt Series 70 National Match Gold Cup that I also use. The 52 allows me to switch between all of these guns easily. Good stuff!