Model 57 no dash

[Hair Trigger]

I'd like to know the approximate date on a M57 no dash, SN# S8195xx.

I picked this up at a gun show, paid a price less than I've seen the gun sell for on GB or Armslist. No box, no S&W stocks, and it has some sort of add-on ventilated rib that I like the appearance of, but would just as soon had a nice set of target stocks instead. It has target hammer and trigger, some very small scratches below the cylinder release that don't go through the bluing, and a tad of wear on one side at the muzzle. The cylinder wear ring is minimal, the gun locks up very tightly, trigger is glass smooth, passes the push-off test. I liked most that it's an earlier gun (S in the serial), it's clean and it's a .41 Magnum, one of my "unicorns".

What can the experts tell me about this odd rib? It's mounted directly on top of the standard sights, don't know how it's fastened because there are no screws visible. Somebody wanted it to look like a Python, I suppose.

Late edit: I misread the SN, it's S319xxx.

 

[tlawler]

SCSW4 lists S333454 as the highest S-prefix serial no.
Rib is kind of cool looking, gives it the appearance of a Python.
But...I like stock old S&W’s.

 

[oysterer]

nice gun but whatever this thing is, it has to come off. I'd look again for any hint of a screw, if not soak in kroil and then heat with a good shop heat gun carefully and see what happens. If this is glued or epoxied, it may loosen up some. I know I would not stop until this is gone hopefully not screwing things up as I go...good luck.

 

[Hair Trigger]

SCSW4 lists S333454 as the highest S-prefix serial no.
Rib is kind of cool looking, gives it the appearance of a Python.
But...I like stock old S&W’s.

I misread it, the SN is S319xxx. You know how sometimes the numbers don't stamp very clearly. I'm with you, I would prefer the stock look, but I suppose it could be worse.

 

[wetdog]

That would make it 1968-69

 

[bamabiker]

Never seen one like that. I'd shoot it first and if good to go I'd leave it. Probably change the grips.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Thanks for the date info, I figured it was in the mid-late '60s or thereabouts. I looked at the "rail" under high magnification in my workshop just now. looks like some sort of heavy-duty silicone adhesive. With a fine pick, I can push in on the adhesive where it's very slightly built up at the front sight, and it springs back. Might be something as simple as Permatex. I'm going to leave it as-is for a while, I sort of like the look and whoever put it on did a clean job of it.

As for the grips, they are Altamonts and comfortable; I'd rather they were a different color, more of a brown than the black. I'll look around for a set of Alves target stocks, but I know it will always be somewhat of a "hybrid" since they weren't original.

Now, to find some brass and bullets, and load up some ammo. I don't care to have full .41 magnum loads, I'll probably load them to an MV around 1200 fps for a 210 grain bullet.

I'll get a few more "family" shots later, it looks really nice with my M19-3 and M28-2.

 

[Narragansett]

nice gun but whatever this thing is, it has to come off. I'd look again for any hint of a screw, if not soak in kroil and then heat with a good shop heat gun carefully and see what happens. If this is glued or epoxied, it may loosen up some. I know I would not stop until this is gone hopefully not screwing things up as I go...good luck.

i think there was a well known gunsmith that mare the rib conversion. probably silver solder due to recoil. Sure does shine. Rubi must have polished that one

 

[Doc44]

Your Model 57 most likely shipped in the second half of 1969. The correct stocks would be target type made Goncalo alves without a diamond around the escutcheon and nut.

Bill

 

[AzTBH]

Could it be a Poly Choke Rib?
POLY-CHOKE RAISED HANDGUN RIB FOR SMITH & WESSON "K" FRAME 4” NOS | eBay

 

[Hair Trigger]

Could it be a Poly Choke Rib?
POLY-CHOKE RAISED HANDGUN RIB FOR SMITH & WESSON "K" FRAME 4” NOS | eBay

Maybe, but the one you show isn't vented. I've decided to leave it on, I emailed S&W about it and they couldn't give me any info. Actually, they were very little help. It's odd, they mentioned they could tell me the manufacture date of my gun (I had included the SN# when I emailed them), but they didn't tell me what it was, I suppose because I didn't specifically ask for it. Why couldn't they just tell me what it was, instead of mentioning they could tell me, but didn't?

Anyway, I shot it for the first time today. Man, is that a handful of gun. I got my Lee dies, brass and 210 grain XTP's Friday, loaded up some mid-power rounds last night and tried them out today. I shot three cylinder's worth, my hand tingled for 30 minutes, and these loads were only about 1225 fps (Lil' Gun 20.8 grains). I loaded 50 rounds like this, going to try some full power loads next, will use H110 @ 22.5 grains, pushing 210 grain XTP.

The sights were right on for me; I was shooting a 12" gong at 25 and 50 yards; I thought it was going to tear the one at 25 off its chain.

 

[SuperMan]

Very nice gun...

That rib should be a Pachmayer...I beieve you are correct and that it is glued on....more than likely it glues on with some sort of flexible adhesive so it will not dry out, get brittle and crack...

Loads...respectfully, very wrong powders for the mid-rage velocity you are seeking. H110 is best for FULL bore loads that will run 210s at 1300-1400 fps from a 6" barrel. 22.5-23.00 grains of H110 will clock in that area. After a lot of reading I would not use Lil'Gun...burns way too hot and is known to damage forcing cones in very few rounds. If Freedom Arms finds out one uses that powder they will not honor the waranty...

Good old Unique will run 210s:
4" 57
8.0 grains....950+-
9.0 grains....1100+-
10.0 grains....1180 fps+-

I don't use slow buring powders in my Smiths any more...Unique does everything I need for 57/657/58s.

If this is your first .41, lots of good links and posts here...

.41 Magnum / 41 Special Load Data Center

1964-2014...The .41 Magnum


Have a great time with your gun...Bob

 

[Hair Trigger]

Very nice gun...

That rib should be a Pachmayer...I beieve you are correct and that it is glued on....more than likely it glues on with some sort of flexible adhesive so it will not dry out, get brittle and crack...

Loads...respectfully, very wrong powders for the mid-rage velocity you are seeking. H110 is best for FULL bore loads that will run 210s at 1300-1400 fps from a 6" barrel. 22.5-23.00 grains of H110 will clock in that area. After a lot of reading I would not use Lil'Gun...burns way too hot and is known to damage forcing cones in very few rounds. If Freedom Arms finds out one uses that powder they will not honor the waranty...[/URL]


Have a great time with your gun...Bob

Thanks for the links and load info. I'm using Lil'Gun and H110 mainly because I had them on hand, and I'm loading from the Hornady 10th Edition manual, which I use for all my firearms. Are you saying the possible damage from using Lil'Gun comes from heat and not shock damage (such as using 125's in a M19 cracking cones from velocity)?

The loads I've made from each of the powders is well below the maximum listed, running about 1225 fps. That's around 20.5 grains for Lil'Gun and 20.8 for H110. Any links to the issues with using Lil'Gun?

As for the rib, whatever the adhesive is that's used on mine, I took a needle-tipped probe, and under magnification poked a little at the adhesive seam; it flexes and springs back, much like a strong silicone adhesive would. I suspect that helps keep the bond from cracking under the shock of shooting the gun. If it starts to de-bond, I'll probably remove it, but if it stays secure I'm going to leave it. I probably won't shoot this gun a lot, probably less than 75 rounds/year.

One other thing; is it possible to shoot .41 Action Express in this gun, using moon clips to seat them? .41AE cases were modified from .41Mag, the diameters are the same, use same bullets, but maybe the recessed cylinder won't allow clips to be used?

 

[A10]

fI have owned a few 57s, and loved every one of them! Currently my only 41 is a Ruger Blackhawk, and I couldn't pass it up given the condition and the price.

As far as moon clips, I'm pretty sure that is a no go without major modificaitons to the gun, which to me would be out of the question.

Nice looking 57 you have, and I kinda like the vented rib!

 

[SuperMan]

Information on the powder...

Handgun Hunter Magazine - Forums: Lil'Gun Powder, The Truth

.41 AE...as said above, the cylinder would have to be machined to take moon clips...you don't want to go there...

 

[Old Corp]

When I worked at an LGS in the mid-70's we sold an aftermarket Pachmayr vent rib that would fit on various models of revolvers. IIRC, it had an adhesive strip on the bottom (?) - Not sure.
As I recall, they had a very limited popularity in our area.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Information on the powder...

Handgun Hunter Magazine - Forums: Lil'Gun Powder, The Truth

.41 AE...as said above, the cylinder would have to be machined to take moon clips...you don't want to go there...

That link is an interesting read. I certainly don't want to do damage to a gun I've looked a long time to find a decent example/price.

However, I want to question several aspects of this issue. 1st and foremost, if this is an unsuitable powder for the myriad of guns that have published loads for it, why isn't there either a disclaimer by Hodgdon, or the companies that include pistol load data in their manuals, or an outright warning not to use it for anything other than shotgun loads?

2nd would be the tests done by Freedom. They only tested their gun; that is well and good for them, but are there differences in materials, metallurgy and heat treatment procedures between them and other handgun manufacturers that would make their guns susceptible and not for others?

I found these two posts on another gun forum (Ruger), from 2015, which makes a lot of sense why you get more noticeable heat when using Lil'Gun. The first post says, and I am quoting word for word:

Thanks for the info everyone. I dug a bit deeper and it seems like cone erosion problems were in the big Freedom Arms revolvers running light for caliber projectiles

The following post from that one was made by a moderator, but that wouldn't make him any more an expert than the rest of us. But his knowledge of how powders burn and transfer heat seems to back up the first post. Again, quoting word for word:

I find it interesting...Lil'Gun powder was specifically designed for magnum handguns.

Properties of Lil'Gun...it is one of the slowest-burning handgun powders on the market and develops less chamber pressure at the same velocity as other powders. becuase it burns so slow, you will indeed experience hotter barrels.

All smokeless powders burn in the 5000-6000 degree range, however the duration of the burn and the distance the bullet travels before peak pressure is reached will change with different burn rate powders. The issue with all slow-burning magnum powders is peak pressure timing. If you use a light-for-caliber bullet, peak pressure will occur at exactly the wrong time...just as the base of the bullet passes the B/C gap. This will cause increased flame cutting on the top strap and the forcing cone. By using a normal bullet weight, or even a heavy-for-caliber bullet, peak pressure happens well before the bullet exits the cylinder, thus minimal flame cutting.

He goes on to talk about selecting .357 Magnum bullets, but the same would apply to most any revolver caliber and bullet/powder choices. I don't know whether or not to argue with his statement about Lil'Gun being specifically designed for magnum handguns, the only use data shown on the label is for shotguns, and the label clearly states "shotgun powder" but no mention of any type handgun.

I also use Lil'Gun for my 300 BLK, for several different bullet weights from 125 to 168 grain, been using it for several years. Haven't seen any chamber or leade damage and it gets a lot more rapid fire than any of my revolvers.

 

[Chukar60]

That is a very nice looking gun.
I like the looks of a King Target rib on older Smiths.
I like the look of the rib on that 57.

 

[steelslaver]

Nice gun. I would want to get the rib off myself, butt then, thats just me being me.

I would use heat. Most adhesives break down before 500f. A few silicone base ones hold till 660f. If you don't have a heat gun go to Harbor Freight and get one. Heat will most likely break down the adhesive so that the rib will lift off.

I use soft silver solder to reattach front sight bases. The flux can be hard on blue, but the heat itself does nothing to the finish.

Your barrel and frame (but not the hammer and trigger) can get to over 700f before it effects any temper. I would be careful of the front sight though as the insert will melt. Try heating the rear portion of the "rib". If you can lift the rear off keep the heat focused on the rib and away from the front sight while pulling or wedging up the rib.

Another thought is soaking the gun for a couple days ina closed container with acetone. Remove the grips first and see if that breaks down the adhesive. You might also try MEK. Both would destroy the front insert though.

 

[SuperMan]

Lil'Gun was specifically designed for .410 and 28 ga. shotgun shell reloading...that is why it was called Lil'Gun...for Little Guns...

 

[BE Mike]

It's a shooter. I wouldn't mess with it if you like the looks. Most all of my handguns have some little modifications, i.e. trigger jobs, Bo-Mar ribs, custom grips, smoothed triggers, etc. Even if you don't find the rib functional, it is a good conversation starter for people who know S&W revolvers.

 

[BigMuddy]

The link on Lil Gun powder is true. The FA customer that had a barrel replaced, and then another 600 rounds later was me. In my conversations With Bob Baker we never discussed the powder until the second barrel. That prompted additional testing. It took a while to narrow the problem down to the powder. A friend of mine fired thousands of 454 rounds in a gun with H110 for 20 years with no cone erosion. He tried 50 rounds with H110 and his forcing cone was eroded.

It’s true that I can only attest to this powder in FA 454 M83’s. I would guess it is not a problem in guns without a b/c gap, as in rifles and single shot handguns. I also think the extremely tight b/c gap on FA revolvers may contribute to the issue, but I don’t know.

I used Lil Gun for about 50 41Mag rounds in a Ruger Blackhawk and had no erosion issues. Accuracy was outstanding. Still, I got rid of the last couple pounds I had. Replacing barrels ain’t cheap.

I think the vent rib on the OP’s gun looks good. I’d shoot the heck out of it. I have found Accurate #9 to be extremely accurate for use in all of my 41’s

Dan

 

[SuperMan]

BM..."A friend of mine fired thousands of 454 rounds in a gun with H110 for 20 years with no cone erosion. He tried 50 rounds with H110 and his forcing cone was eroded."

Did you mean he tried 50 rounds of Lil'Gun?

From what I have read it is the GoTo powder for .22 Hornet...outstanding accuracy and velocity... But again it is in a firearm that has no cylinder gap...

I have gone through several 8# containers of H110 in my .41s and .44s with zero issues. Like you it is one of those "why take the chance"...

Bob