Model 59 carry mode

[petepeterson]

I carry my 3rd Gen autos with a loaded chamber, hammer down, and the safety set in the "fire" position. Was there an issue with the 1st generation of Smith autos that makes this a bad idea?

 

[growr]

none that I know of.......that is how I carry all of my S&W semi-auto's that aren't striker fired..
Randy

 

[loc n load]

59's,659's & 5904's

I have carried all three generations of DA/SA's as duty and off duty sidearms and was certified by S&W as a armorer on these guns back in the late 80's. The whole purpose of the DA/SA is that the decocker can safely lower the hammer unto a chambered round, then the pistol can be drawn and fired in DA mode - like a DA revolver, then following rounds are fired SA....when done - decock, lever goes back into the "enable" position so that the pistol can be fired DA.....the S&W staff that I trained under maintained that this control was a decocking lever, & trained armorers & instructors in that fashion. My agency issued thousands of these pistols and every officer we trained and signed off on were trained to carry them - hammer down on loaded chamber - decock lever up.
And I am quite aware that other's carried/carry the pistol with the decock lever in the " disable" position - that is their option.
It just adds another physical step that the shooter has to take under duress to get the pistol into action.

 

[Imissedagain]

Mine is always carried with the gun ready to fire with just a DA pull of the trigger since 1980. The decocking lever is used after chambering. Hasn't missed a beat since day one.
The pic is just the white wood with colored pencil for testing star size etc.
They will come with mother of pearl and white wood stars/checkered.
Joinery, not inlays except for the pearl stars.

 

[petepeterson]

I have carried all three generations of DA/SA's as duty and off duty sidearms and was certified by S&W as a armorer on these guns back in the late 80's. The whole purpose of the DA/SA is that the decocker can safely lower the hammer unto a chambered round, then the pistol can be drawn and fired in DA mode - like a DA revolver, then following rounds are fired SA....when done - decock, lever goes back into the "enable" position so that the pistol can be fired DA.....S&W maintains that this control is a decocking lever, trains armorers & instructors in that fashion. My agency issued thousands of these pistols and every officer we trained and signed off on were trained to carry them - hammer down on loaded chamber - decock lever up.
And I am quite aware that other's carried/carry the pistol with the decock lever in the " disable" position - that is their option.
It just adds another physical step that the shooter has to take under duress to get the pistol into action.

If they designed it as a "decock lever" then why doesn't it spring back up into position?

My original question was more along the lines of if there was an additional safety (or safeties) in place on the newer generations. It's my understanding that the 1st Gens could fire if dropped. I was wondering if there were any other failures along those lines that provoked the newer generations.

 

[JohnHL]

You are correct, petepeterson.
2nd and 3rd gen pistols incorporate a firing pin safety that locks the firing pin unless the trigger is fully depressed.
Prior to that, a hard enough jolt could cause the momemtum of the firing pin to overcome the resistance of the firing pin spring and allow contact with the primer of a chambered round.

John

 

[jsbethel]

From a 1988 centerfire owner manual - "A loaded Smith & Wesson Model 39, 52, 59 and 745, which has an inertial firing pin without an automatic firing pin safety plunger, can discharge accidently with the manual safety in the "fire" position if subjected to sufficient impact, such as being dropped onto the muzzle. Therefore, it is absolutely essential that the manual safety of a loaded Model 39, 52, 59 and 745 be kept in the "safe" position until you are actually ready to fire."

 

[Imissedagain]

You are correct, petepeterson.
2nd and 3rd gen pistols incorporate a firing pin safety that locks the firing pin unless the trigger is fully depressed.
Prior to that, a hard enough jolt could cause the momemtum of the firing pin to overcome the resistance of the firing pin spring and allow contact with the primer of a chambered round.

John

Obviously that has happened and I wonder how many documented cases exist?
Safe gun handling is paramount boys and girls.

 

[petepeterson]

You are correct, petepeterson.
2nd and 3rd gen pistols incorporate a firing pin safety that locks the firing pin unless the trigger is fully depressed.
Prior to that, a hard enough jolt could cause the momemtum of the firing pin to overcome the resistance of the firing pin spring and allow contact with the primer of a chambered round.

John

That's kinda what I was figuring. I'm assuming there were no issues with the gun discharging during the de-cock process. I did notice that it was written in the lid of the box that the pistol was returned for a recall in '84. It originally shipped in '73. Any idea what the recall was for?

 

[Hill_Country]

Obviously that has happened and I wonder how many documented cases exist?
Safe gun handling is paramount boys and girls.

This issue was discussed in this forum a few months ago and there was at least one example of an AD. Seems like it was an LEO who tapped on a car window with the muzzle. It was an interesting thread if you can find it again.

 

[solomon]

This issue was discussed in this forum a few months ago and there was at least one example of an AD. Seems like it was an LEO who tapped on a car window with the muzzle.

Hmmmm, that sounds "unlikely" - most guns I've seen with free-floating firing pins would have to be dropped muzzle-first to get enough inertia to discharge. I played around with Ti vs steel firing pins in one of my ARs trying to eliminate the primer dimple or make one actually go off. Now I didn't slam the thing muzzle-first, but pretty serious bolt manipulations didn't result in either an obviously different primer dimple or any cases of getting the primer to actually ignite. YMMV and all that.


"Tapping" on a car window sounds more like "unintended finger-trigger contractional contact" to me... but I wasn't there, so I won't completely disavow the possibility.

 

[petepeterson]

So judging from the responses-

If I don't drop the dang thing, I should be OK to carry it like I carry the rest of my 3rd Gens. This would save me from looking for a 5903, perish the thought!

 

[Engine 21]

Yeah, perish the thought!

 

[flagman1776]

I was aware of the inertia firing question... same as 1911 BTW. Never the less I carried M39-2, M645 safety off & a chambered round. If dropped on the muzzle hard enough to discharge, the AD is likely going into the ground.

 

[Engine49guy]

The Model 39 DA trigger supposedly evolved from the Walther P-38,

The Walther P-38's safety arrests the firing pin when engaged , IIRC when well used (can you say Russian front) the firing pin lugs could wear to the point that they no longer would retain the firing pin so dropping the handgun could result in an AD.

In extreme cases simply engaging the decock mechanism could result in an AD.

The next step in the Walther P-38 (P-1) design was the Walther P-4 which had a spring loaded decock lever and a recess cut in the hammer face that came into alignment with the firing pin with the trigger at rest,
Pulling the trigger raised the firing pin into battery with the flat spot on the hammer which could then strike the firing pin.

The same system was employed in the Walther P-5 series pistols.

IMO Walther would not have changed the P-38 design unless they knew a problem existed,
Likewise the S&W autos evolved from known safety issues...
Word to the wise is to carry the Model 59, 39 and 39-2 with the safety engaged or with an empty chamber.

 

[petepeterson]

Word to the wise is to carry the Model 59, 39 and 39-2 with the safety engaged or with an empty chamber.

Therin lies the rub- I won't carry it in that mode. All of my carry guns, be it revolver or auto, are "draw, DA trigger, run for your life" mode. If I'm going to add a safety to the mix, I'm going right back to 1911/Hi-Power (which I'm probably looking for a reasonable excuse to do anyway). On those pieces, the safety is engaged in the right direction!

I'm fortunate enough to have many pistols to carry, so these are definitely 1st world problems.

 

[Engine49guy]

Therin lies the rub- I won't carry it in that mode. All of my carry guns, be it revolver or auto, are "draw, DA trigger, run for your life" mode. If I'm going to add a safety to the mix, I'm going right back to 1911/Hi-Power (which I'm probably looking for a reasonable excuse to do anyway). On those pieces, the safety is engaged in the right direction!

I'm fortunate enough to have many pistols to carry, so these are definitely 1st world problems.

Have you fired a Browning High Power with the HP-SFS system yet ?

The HP-SFS (Safe-Fast-Shooting) is a current variation on the Hi-Power Mark III with a modified firing mechanism. After the weapon is loaded, the hammer is pushed forward, which automatically activates the safety catch. When the shooter is prepared to fire, the safety is pressed down with the thumb, releasing the hammer to spring backwards into the usual, single-action position. A similar system is available for modifying Colt M1911A1s. Magazines are interchangeable with the Mark III and others

 

[JohnHL]

This issue was discussed in this forum a few months ago and there was at least one example of an AD. Seems like it was an LEO who tapped on a car window with the muzzle. It was an interesting thread if you can find it again.

Hmmmm, that sounds "unlikely" - most guns I've seen with free-floating firing pins would have to be dropped muzzle-first to get enough inertia to discharge. I played around with Ti vs steel firing pins in one of my ARs trying to eliminate the primer dimple or make one actually go off. Now I didn't slam the thing muzzle-first, but pretty serious bolt manipulations didn't result in either an obviously different primer dimple or any cases of getting the primer to actually ignite. YMMV and all that.


"Tapping" on a car window sounds more like "unintended finger-trigger contractional contact" to me... but I wasn't there, so I won't completely disavow the possibility.

Thanks for bringing this up, guys!
This was the scenario I was trying to recall.
If memory serves, it was a car stop.
A dynamic scene with a lot of action.
The officer was bringing his pistol up as the car door was thrust open, slamming the window into the muzzle.
Tests were conducted and the AD was duplicated.
I hope someone finds the thread.

John

 

[Mtnfolk325]

I always carried my Issued Model 59 with a loaded chamber, hammer down and safety off just as we were trained. I still carry my old issue IWB occasionally and it the same way. I'm familiar with a few ND's over the years & they always followed a muzzle down drop. The ND's caused most injury from the flying chips of concrete or tile ..... ;o)

 

[flagman1776]

There have been a few cases reported of 1st gen pistols going AD when decocking. I believe that subsequent investigations found previously unknown damaged/broken safety parts. It would sure suck to have an AD hit an innocent or even a suspect. Training was expanded & we were taught to decock in a safe direction. When this first came to light, guys I knew placed sand bags in the bottom of their lockers. I've heard that more recently specific places to handle weapons in station have been provided.