I slug the throats with 44 cal lead round balls, and measure those.
That is the preferred way I believe of doing such a measurement. The bullet casters I have talked to say so, anyway.
Model 69, 2.75" barrel, Pin gauge update
- Thread starter Shark Bait
- Start date
That is the preferred way I believe of doing such a measurement. The bullet casters I have talked to say so, anyway.
Collo Rosso
Member
Remind me shocker and I'll measure mine when I get it. I have a set of ball gauges from when In worked in aerospace.
OP
Thanks for the tip. I'll have to get some and try it. That should provide a more accurate result.
I used to use an unsized soft lead bullet for the same purpose.
I ordered a 627 from them on Friday. Received a shipping notification this morning. Shipping UPS 2nd day air for $7.99. I've purchased from them numerous times without any issues.
OP
I just slugged 44 call round balls through two chambers. Both measured .430. Again, this is only as accurate as my calipers are.
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OP
Duplicate post, internet being goofy.
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OP
I was able to spend a little time at the range yesterday with my new 69. I only shot 26 rounds, but it's a start. I shot 15 rounds of Ultramax 200 grain 44 Special Cowboy loads, 3 rounds of Buffalo Bore 190 grain 44 Special soft lead hollow points, 3 rounds of Buffalo Bore 255 Grain hard-cast Keith 44 Special, and 5 rounds of American Eagle 240 grain 44 magnum hollow points. Obviously, this is not enough to provide any good data, but I did get a feel for how the gun performs. I like it. All rounds shown below were fired from a standing position with a two-hand unsupported grip, single action. The 44 Special was very nice to shoot. The 44 magnum had significant recoil. You can see my group opened up a fair bit with it.
Even though I fired only 3 rounds of the BB 255 grain Keiths, it seems the gun shoots it very well.
Even though I fired only 3 rounds of the BB 255 grain Keiths, it seems the gun shoots it very well.
Nemo288
Member
.430" is way better than .432" !
The 2 newest S&W 44's I have (post year 2000) both measure .4295" using Meyer Gage pins (- .0002").
They are also the most accurate of the dozen or so 44 revolvers I have acquired over the years with the possible exception
of a 7.5" Redhawk and a DW 7445 given the right ammo.
The 2 newest S&W 44's I have (post year 2000) both measure .4295" using Meyer Gage pins (- .0002").
They are also the most accurate of the dozen or so 44 revolvers I have acquired over the years with the possible exception
of a 7.5" Redhawk and a DW 7445 given the right ammo.
Collo Rosso
Member
Got mine to the range today with 100 rounds of 44mag cases, 240gr RNFP plated from Xtreme and various amounts of W231 powder. Started with 5.2gr. and was all over the paper. This is a covered range and I was struggling to see the sights. Moved to an open bay with steel plates and a Texas star and that was more like it. In the sun I could make out the front sight and had a blast hammering the plates. 100 rounds went way to quick! Got up to 7.0gr loads and found them accurate with with very manageable recoil. This is a fun shooter!
Out of the box noticed a very even finish. Not sure what the black parts are coated with but it looks like crylon. I'm sure it's not as it's not going to scratch off, just a touch to shiny for me. DA trigger was heavy, SA typical S&W. 12lb rebound spring calling my name. Trigger pull very smooth. Only thing that caught my attention was small burrs at the recessed muzzle.
Only flaw at the range was one cylinder hole a touch tight. 4 would drop right in and 1 needed a slight push to seat. All 5 ejected fine. The grip I kinda like. I hate finger bumps, but these I didn't even notice. The covered backstrap I'm sure made a difference with recoil but noticed the increased reach to the trigger. Will start to look for a wood grip because.. it's what we do!
All in all very pleased with this new big bore snubbie.
Out of the box noticed a very even finish. Not sure what the black parts are coated with but it looks like crylon. I'm sure it's not as it's not going to scratch off, just a touch to shiny for me. DA trigger was heavy, SA typical S&W. 12lb rebound spring calling my name. Trigger pull very smooth. Only thing that caught my attention was small burrs at the recessed muzzle.
Only flaw at the range was one cylinder hole a touch tight. 4 would drop right in and 1 needed a slight push to seat. All 5 ejected fine. The grip I kinda like. I hate finger bumps, but these I didn't even notice. The covered backstrap I'm sure made a difference with recoil but noticed the increased reach to the trigger. Will start to look for a wood grip because.. it's what we do!
All in all very pleased with this new big bore snubbie.
OP
Thanks for your assessment Collo. I'm liking this new 69. Especially with the Buffalo Bore heavy 44 Special loads.
Nemo288
Member
I am actually kind of liking the black parts.
Must be cheaper than case hardening in colors that they have done on some of the MIM parts like the hammer and trigger.
Might rust less too.
Be interesting to see what they look like under the (possible) powder coat.
If it is a nitride carburation finish then cool!
Might be my next S&W.
I have not got a brandy new one since the early 1990's (629-2).
Should reduce my temptation to run Skeeter loads in the 696's even if Brian Pearce says it's OK.
Anyone tried to carry one in a 3" L frame holster yet?
I have several of those already.
Your experience is typical of cast bullets and target loads IMHO.
Somewhere as you increase the load, the bullets, depending on how hard they are,
will upset to fill the chamber throats and bore.
Harder bullets, which are so common now, take more bang to run well.
These 2 targets may show this effect:
The Gold Dot is a very soft and thinly plated bullet.
The Oregon Trail Laser-Cast is quite hard.
Both the 624's have very large chamber throats at or near .433".
The softer bullet shoots way better with less powder.
The magnum targets may, in fact, show that jacketed bullets obturate as well.
I believe they do given enough kick.
Must be cheaper than case hardening in colors that they have done on some of the MIM parts like the hammer and trigger.
Might rust less too.
Be interesting to see what they look like under the (possible) powder coat.
If it is a nitride carburation finish then cool!
Might be my next S&W.
I have not got a brandy new one since the early 1990's (629-2).
Should reduce my temptation to run Skeeter loads in the 696's even if Brian Pearce says it's OK.
Anyone tried to carry one in a 3" L frame holster yet?
I have several of those already.
Your experience is typical of cast bullets and target loads IMHO.
Somewhere as you increase the load, the bullets, depending on how hard they are,
will upset to fill the chamber throats and bore.
Harder bullets, which are so common now, take more bang to run well.
These 2 targets may show this effect:
The Gold Dot is a very soft and thinly plated bullet.
The Oregon Trail Laser-Cast is quite hard.
Both the 624's have very large chamber throats at or near .433".
The softer bullet shoots way better with less powder.
The magnum targets may, in fact, show that jacketed bullets obturate as well.
I believe they do given enough kick.
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OP
I have been carrying the 69 in the same holsters that I use for my 2.5 inch 686 and they work just fine. I picked up a Galco shoulder holster on Ebay for the 686 a while back. The dump pouches hold 7 rounds of 357 for my -4+ and will accommodate 5 rounds of 44 for the 69. The 69 will likely be my new EDC revolver.
catadjuster
Member
Front Sight
It looks like a roll pin under the front sight - is this blade one of the "no tools" to remove?
It looks like a roll pin under the front sight - is this blade one of the "no tools" to remove?
OP
Doesn't appear to be. I can't move it.
Collo Rosso
Member
Front sight is pinned.
howdy53
Member
Ok, when did S&W change the ball detent on the 69, my early 69 has a crappy looking detent up front. Gee, the new version looks a lot better. Still love my 69 though!
OP
I believe they must have changed it with the new 66 and 69 snubbies. I can only assume that they will eventually use the new system on the 4.25 inch guns. I would think that the change would warrant a new dash number, but mine only says 69.
Mine came in today.
Cylinder throats approx .4295. Measured with pin/plug gauges (minus verity) -- .429 go, .430 no go in all five throats.
Took it to the range for limited workout (time constrained).
Ended up putting the X Frame 500 Hogues on the gun. After that all was good. Holsters for my 396 fit the M69 2.75" perfectly.
All groups shot at 25 yds rested. The lead loads were just some ammo I had around for testing other guns -- I'm sure that a load could be (will be) developed for this particular gun.
The .44 special equivalent loads were easy shooting. The .44 mag equivalent (H110) loads were not at all unpleasant with the Hogue 500s.
I didn't chrono anything today, but for reference velocities form one of my 4 1/4" M69s at 5 long paces and 50 deg _+ were
260 WFNGC w/23.0gr H110 avg 1,224 fps
240 Zero JSP with 23.5gr H110 avg 1,230 fps
240gr Fed Factory avg 1,220 fps
240gr Zero JSP with 8.5gr Univ avg 910 fps
250gr Keith (Lyman 429421) with 21.1gr H2400 avg 1,250 fps
I'm very happy with the two groups with H110 considering old eyes, iron sights and short sight radius.
This gun was very comfortable to shoot with the Hogue 500 X Frame grips -- not so much (for me) with factory grips.
Paul
Cylinder throats approx .4295. Measured with pin/plug gauges (minus verity) -- .429 go, .430 no go in all five throats.
Took it to the range for limited workout (time constrained).
Ended up putting the X Frame 500 Hogues on the gun. After that all was good. Holsters for my 396 fit the M69 2.75" perfectly.
All groups shot at 25 yds rested. The lead loads were just some ammo I had around for testing other guns -- I'm sure that a load could be (will be) developed for this particular gun.
The .44 special equivalent loads were easy shooting. The .44 mag equivalent (H110) loads were not at all unpleasant with the Hogue 500s.
I didn't chrono anything today, but for reference velocities form one of my 4 1/4" M69s at 5 long paces and 50 deg _+ were
260 WFNGC w/23.0gr H110 avg 1,224 fps
240 Zero JSP with 23.5gr H110 avg 1,230 fps
240gr Fed Factory avg 1,220 fps
240gr Zero JSP with 8.5gr Univ avg 910 fps
250gr Keith (Lyman 429421) with 21.1gr H2400 avg 1,250 fps
I'm very happy with the two groups with H110 considering old eyes, iron sights and short sight radius.
This gun was very comfortable to shoot with the Hogue 500 X Frame grips -- not so much (for me) with factory grips.
Paul
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OP
I'd like to find a nice set of guages. They seem to be pretty expensive.
Nemo288
Member
I got an import set for general .001" work and then a few individual Meyer Gage pins for work with 44's, kind of a mini set in .0005" steps.
250 Piece, 0.251-0.5 Inch Diameter Plug and 86463023 - MSC
Individual Gage Pins available in all Classes - Class Z Individual Gage Pins, Class ZZ Individual Gage Pins, Class X Individual Gage Pins, Class XX Individual Gage Pins | Meyer Gage Company, Inc.
Considering they should last a couple of lifetimes given proper care, they are pretty cheap especially if you just get the ones you need.
Make sure you get good case for them from the maker even if you only get a few pins.
250 Piece, 0.251-0.5 Inch Diameter Plug and 86463023 - MSC
Individual Gage Pins available in all Classes - Class Z Individual Gage Pins, Class ZZ Individual Gage Pins, Class X Individual Gage Pins, Class XX Individual Gage Pins | Meyer Gage Company, Inc.
Considering they should last a couple of lifetimes given proper care, they are pretty cheap especially if you just get the ones you need.
Make sure you get good case for them from the maker even if you only get a few pins.
When I got mine, three years ago now, the discount stores on-line were very reasonable (<$100 & free shipping). Now I see that business was bought out by someone else & the prices have doubled.
.
Amazon sells American made Vermont Gauge pin gauges in -.0002 size for between $2 and $4 each. I just get the 3-4 sizes I need for each caliber to measure throats. For example .4295 is $2.78. Just plug in the sizes you need in the drop down.
Vermont Gage Steel No-Go Plug Gage, Tolerance Class ZZ, 0.004" Gage Diameter: Hardware Pin Gauges: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
Stu
Vermont Gage Steel No-Go Plug Gage, Tolerance Class ZZ, 0.004" Gage Diameter: Hardware Pin Gauges: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
Stu
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Quick update:
Chronoed these from the 2.75" M69 today. Three rounds at 5 Long paces from muzzle and 68 deg F.
260 WFNGC w/23.0gr H110 avg 1,125 fps
240 Zero JSP with 23.5gr H110 avg 1,126 fps
240gr Fed Factory avg 1,125 fps
265gr CSWCGC (Lyman Thompson) with 17.5gr A2400 (Deep Seat) 1,119 fps avg
325gr WLNGC (BTB) with 22.0gr H110 avg 1,104 fps
Because some of the numbers were so close, I checked and rechecked -- it is what it is. Increased round count would probably change the results a bit.
Still amazed at how well this little gun handles recoil with the Hogue 500 X Frame grips.
Paul
Chronoed these from the 2.75" M69 today. Three rounds at 5 Long paces from muzzle and 68 deg F.
260 WFNGC w/23.0gr H110 avg 1,125 fps
240 Zero JSP with 23.5gr H110 avg 1,126 fps
240gr Fed Factory avg 1,125 fps
265gr CSWCGC (Lyman Thompson) with 17.5gr A2400 (Deep Seat) 1,119 fps avg
325gr WLNGC (BTB) with 22.0gr H110 avg 1,104 fps
Because some of the numbers were so close, I checked and rechecked -- it is what it is. Increased round count would probably change the results a bit.
Still amazed at how well this little gun handles recoil with the Hogue 500 X Frame grips.
Paul
OP
Thanks Paul. Great info. As I've said before, I'm really liking this 69. It's an awesome package.
Nemo288
Member
Thanks for the data!
The 260 WFNGC is one of my favorite 44 mag bullets of all time.
I run it with 18-19 grains 2400.
Also in the .445 with 31 grains IMR-4227.
I have just one small caution for you.
I would hesitate to run the Zero .431" 240 JSPFN thru your gun with .4295" throats.
They are obviously working but may be causing either higher pressure than you think or excessive wear on those throats (or both).
I reserve that bullet for the many 44's than have throats larger than .430".
Can't wait to get my hands on one of those model 69 revolvers.
I must be getting to be a dirty old man because the model number makes me think about getting the gun
engraved along the lines of one Ted Nugent had made for him awhile back featuring ... well you get the picture.
Urban legend has it he was friends with Roy Jinks' daughter at the time. (Izzat true Roy?)
I have just chronographed the Zero 240 JSP bullet in the 444 with the following results for those interested in the high end of things:
Virgin Starline brass, WLR primer, IMR-4227 powder:
31 grains - 1958 fps - 22" 444S
35 grains - 2164 fps - 22" 444S
Virgin Starline brass, WLR primer, IMR-4198 powder:
44 grains - 2313 fps - 22" 444S
45 grains - 2375 fps - 22" 444S
44 grains - 2378 fps - 24" Rizzini BR550E
45 grains - 2432 fps - 24" Rizzini BR550E
This is kind of an academic exercise as I suspect the Zero is going to blow up hitting anything at Mach 2.
I would use the Swift A-Frame if a 240 was to be used seriously.
For big game I am working up a load for the Woodleigh 280 weldcore which would be my main jacketed bullet in the 444 other than the Hornady 265FP.
The Woodleigh is designed for an impact velocity of 1800-2200 fps.
Many 444 big game loads are heavy cast gas check bullets.
The 444 Master Reloading Table is curated by yours truly.
The 260 WFNGC is one of my favorite 44 mag bullets of all time.
I run it with 18-19 grains 2400.
Also in the .445 with 31 grains IMR-4227.
I have just one small caution for you.
I would hesitate to run the Zero .431" 240 JSPFN thru your gun with .4295" throats.
They are obviously working but may be causing either higher pressure than you think or excessive wear on those throats (or both).
I reserve that bullet for the many 44's than have throats larger than .430".
Can't wait to get my hands on one of those model 69 revolvers.
I must be getting to be a dirty old man because the model number makes me think about getting the gun
engraved along the lines of one Ted Nugent had made for him awhile back featuring ... well you get the picture.
Urban legend has it he was friends with Roy Jinks' daughter at the time. (Izzat true Roy?)
I have just chronographed the Zero 240 JSP bullet in the 444 with the following results for those interested in the high end of things:
Virgin Starline brass, WLR primer, IMR-4227 powder:
31 grains - 1958 fps - 22" 444S
35 grains - 2164 fps - 22" 444S
Virgin Starline brass, WLR primer, IMR-4198 powder:
44 grains - 2313 fps - 22" 444S
45 grains - 2375 fps - 22" 444S
44 grains - 2378 fps - 24" Rizzini BR550E
45 grains - 2432 fps - 24" Rizzini BR550E
This is kind of an academic exercise as I suspect the Zero is going to blow up hitting anything at Mach 2.
I would use the Swift A-Frame if a 240 was to be used seriously.
For big game I am working up a load for the Woodleigh 280 weldcore which would be my main jacketed bullet in the 444 other than the Hornady 265FP.
The Woodleigh is designed for an impact velocity of 1800-2200 fps.
Many 444 big game loads are heavy cast gas check bullets.
The 444 Master Reloading Table is curated by yours truly.
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ljd
Member
I picked up the 69 snubby yesterday and have been carrying it in my galco leather 686 holster. I mowed the yard today while carrying it and had to stop at my steel target and dump the cylinder. I was just carrying American Eagle 240 HP. I Hit my steel 4 out of 5 times at just 7 yards, which is on par with the rest of the snubbys I shoot, I like the dents it puts into the steel.
I also have the 4.25 version of the 69 that I've shot some of my Hot hand loads in and I'd say the American Eagle 240 HP felt just as hot in this 2.75". I don't think I'll be up loading to this like I do for the 8 3/8 and the 4.25. Great to feel power of a 44 mag though. I will have to work down some load for this 2.75 barrel using 44 mag casing.
I also have the 4.25 version of the 69 that I've shot some of my Hot hand loads in and I'd say the American Eagle 240 HP felt just as hot in this 2.75". I don't think I'll be up loading to this like I do for the 8 3/8 and the 4.25. Great to feel power of a 44 mag though. I will have to work down some load for this 2.75 barrel using 44 mag casing.
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