Model of 1899 Question

[GRI]

Smith stated in an ad that one of the features of their new 1899 pistol was: "Cylinder notches are reinforced with hardened steel pieces, to prevent notches from becoming worn by the impact of the cylinder stop against the sides of the notches." I was not aware of this. How long did this practice continue? I am not aware of Colt doing this. I would assume the steel inserts would be visible?

 

[delcrossv]

I believe that refers to the model of 1896. There're no inserts in the mod. 1899 or any later model.

Edit. I stand corrected. My Mod 1899 has them.

 

[murphydog]

Somewhere on here, or in a reference book, there is a series of photos detailing the process of installing these inserts on a .32 HE model of 1896 cylinder as mentioned above. Agree that these were not used for the model 1899 K frame.

 

[andyinlz]

1899 Literature

Well.......not so certain that the copywriter of the attached agrees about the usage of inserts.

See item #2.

I will examine my Model 1899 shipped in 1902 this evening.

 

[murphydog]

We're always open to new information!

 

[murphydog]

In the photo series mentioned above, the inserts were obviously visible before final finishing but invisible on the final product, so don't be surprised if you don't see them on your 1899 M & P.

 

[Muley Gil]

I had an early 1905 .32-20 that had the notch inserts. IIRC, it shipped in 1907.

I just checked my 1902 .32-20, serial number 25xxx. It has the notch inserts.

 

[Memphis]

I've got an old cylinder from a 32 HE 1st model (with the patent markings on the actual cylinder) and when looking closely you can see the steel inserts on the edge of the notch. Pretty cool feature! I use the cylinder as a pencil holder on my desk.

Roger

 

[delcrossv]

Well, cool petes! Learn something new everyday!

Now I have to check my (rather early) 1899.

 

[rct269]

I'll tell you what folks!! With one possible exception, I'll bet there isn't anybody who can check their guns when they get home, and then answer questions like this. On the other hand, with no exceptions whatsoever, I'll bet there isn't anybody---at least on this forum who can't pony up the cost of a book (that's been around for 56 (FIFTY SIX!!) years) that answers questions like this----and a bunch more like it that pretty much nobody asks.

That said, yes the Model of 1899 has these shims----as does the Model of 1902 ("commercial models only"----except for my target version, #21898 which (mysteriously) does not----unless they're invisible), as do all the 32-20's up to late in the production of the Model of 1905 2nd Change.

As an aside, and only because I happened to stumble upon it by accident (because I can't remember ever looking up anything on purpose about these so-called New Departure things) the use of these shims was discontinued during the fifth model "at about serial number 230000" (except that the 230000 used in the book has a comma after the first zero for some strange reason----like so 230,000---never mind I don't recall seeing any commas used in serial numbers---ever).

Now I could go on----look up other guns, but I'll hold off on that for the time being.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[delcrossv]

But Ralph, Imagine how boring the forums would be if everyone did that.

 

[andyinlz]

1900 Catalog

Well, smarty pants Ralph was right......I cannot discern the inserts on my 1902-delivered Model 1899. The stops do, though, have very sharply defined edges......

But, my 1900 S&W catalog has a drawing of the cylinder and inserts pre-finishing and boasts on page 5 and 6, after discussing the need for perfect alignment of cylinder and barrel, that "To overcome this wear and spread, a piece of hardened steel is fitted into the side of the notch which comes in contact with the stop, when the motion of the cylinder is checked. This device is protected by patents, and is only found on our Revolvers."

Given the placement of this discussion in the catalog, the implication is that the hardened steel insert is part of their entire 1900 Revolver line.

Perhaps others will be able to determine that the inserts continued until the cylinders themselves were subjected to heat treatment.

 

[mikepriwer]

I checked 8 or more 1899's, and several 1902's, yesterday evening, and I can not discern the steel shims lining the cylinder stop notches. Neal & Jinks does say that the commercial models have the shims. I'm not sure what 'commercial models' means. Does that exclude LEO orders, or military orders ( of which there were only two) ?

Does anyone know how thick the shims are ? On several of my 1899's, there is a very thin edge along the top of the notch, that can be felt with a finger nail. It can't be more than a couple thousandths of an inch thick. I doubt that is the shim, but rather its probably some upsetting of that edge of the notch,from hitting the cylinder stop.

I know the model of 1896 had shims, and they were visible. i don't see anything on my 1899's and 1902's .

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[delcrossv]

Cylinder stop shims .002 thick would be unmanufacturable. The ones on mod 1896 are considerably thicker for that reason alone.

I'd trust a production order more than an ad. You know, marketing people.

 

[andyinlz]

Gold Standard?

While I am rather new to the world of S&Ws, in other areas of my interest a manufacturer's catalog is typically viewed as the gold standard regarding design, features, etc.

Now, of course, sometimes photos or line drawings of pre-production models differ slightly from what actually hit the streets, given the lead time for printed material, production changes, etc.--particularly for first year of a new model.

But, aside from those timing issues, almost nothing trumps the validity of contemporaneous manufacturer catalogs.

And, while marketing folks certainly stretch the truth to the breaking point, would S&W countenance over a page of verbiage---and a drawing to boot---in their 1900 catalog over a fabrication regarding these shims?

Others more experienced than I will have to chime in.

 

[delcrossv]

....
And, while marketing folks certainly stretch the truth to the breaking point, would S&W countenance over a page of verbiage---and a drawing to boot---in their 1900 catalog over a fabrication regarding these shims?
.

No need for malfeasance when miscommunication or mistake will do.

Legal review of advertising didn't start until much later.

 

[glowe]

I checked 8 or more 1899's, and several 1902's, yesterday evening, and I can not discern the steel shims lining the cylinder stop notches . . .

Mike, maybe a new list is in order? I looked over my 1899s & Model 1905s and found that two '99s and one '05 had visible shims. The serial numbers of those 1899s were 3805 (32) and 776 (38). Also found one Model 1905 (32) Winchester that also had shims with serial number 34703. The question is, were the others done so well as to be non-detectable?

The shims appear to be .04" thick, 2.74" long, and centered over the .208" long notch.

 

[Alk8944]

I prefer the term "Insert" or "Liner" for what have been called here "Shims". My recollection is I have seen a reference to the effect they were used in the K-Frame guns up to c. 1909. I have a Winchester Model, 1902 1st change, that has the hardened liners. Per McHenry & Roper these hardened liners began with the Model 1902 1st change for both the .38 and .32 Winchester variants. I find no reference for the Model 1899 having the hardened liners in either McHenry & Roper or SCSW.

 

[mikepriwer]

Gary

If you want to start a separate list, be my guest !

Based on your comment about a 1905, I have several 4-screw 1905's, which is about as early as one can get; serial number between 58000 and 62450. None of my guns show any signs of a shim.

Your pictures are interesting because they generally do not show a complete shim. That is, only a portion of it is revealed. Possibly that portion has separate slightly from the cylinder base. I do know that Neal & Jinks definitely states that 1899 commercial revolvers have the shims.

So - possibly they only reveal themselves when a slight separation occurs; otherwise they are not visible. Or, possibly some of the cylinders do not have them, contrary to the literature. Or, possibly the revolvers I have are not commercial, although I was sure thought they were! I really don't have a good idea as to what is happening here.

Thanks for your comments, and the pictures.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[delcrossv]

Well, I'll be darned. Mod.1899, S/N 1215 (1900 ship date) has them! Needed a loupe to see the machining line. That's probably the finest broach work I've ever seen.

I stand corrected.