Model of 1899 Question

[mikepriwer]

sn 17479 cylinder stop shim

Here is a picture of what I think is a cylinder stop shim on 1899 s/n 17479. This gun has close to 0% original finish, but is in otherwise perfect mechanical and shooting condition. In this picture, the shim (red arrows on both ends) looks like a shadow on an X-ray !

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[delcrossv]

Yep. That's it.

 

[Absalom]

I prefer the term "Insert" or "Liner" for what have been called here "Shims". My recollection is I have seen a reference to the effect they were used in the K-Frame guns up to c. 1909...

Here are two notches from a .32 WCF gun shipped in Dec. 1913, enlarged as far as reasonably possible.

It does not appear the liners are present. In fact, there seems to be the kind of micro-damage the liners were meant to prevent.

 

[Daniel Howe]

Looked at my model 1902 that shipped July 1902. It's commercial and has no sign of an insert. I used a 10X glass and extra light, still not there.

 

[Igiveup]

I checked my 32 Winchester, sn 46342 and could not detect the liners. But, the revolver has been reblued at some time in its life, and may be hiding the liners.

 

[Waveski]

Well, I'll be darned. Mod.1899, S/N 1215 (1900 ship date) has them! Needed a loupe to see the machining line. That's probably the finest broach work I've ever seen.

I stand corrected.

Not only did I not know about the inserts , (excellent image , Mike Priwer...) I just learned what a loupe is.
It's a good day on a great forum.

 

[mikepriwer]

For those of you who are members of S&WCA, I posted a question to Roy Jinks about these liners. Check out that short thread - you'll find it interesting.

Regards, Mike

 

[andyinlz]

Not A Member.....

.....and I should be!

Can you share the gist of the exchange?

 

[Muley Gil]

I finally remembered to check my .32-20 1899 for inserts. Yes, it does have them. Serial number is 4287, with a star on the butt. It went back to the factory in October 1950. Both the frame and the barrel have diamond stampings. The barrel is correct for the 1899 model. The right grip does not have a visible serial number, but it does have EF over R MARSHAL scratched into the hard rubber on the inside.

 

[Hondo44]

Some years ago I discovered the inserts by accident while reading up on S&Ws:

The Model 1896 .32 HE, the 1st side swing S&W revolver, first made use of hardened steel shims to reinforce the cylinder stop notches. According to Jinks' A History of Smith & Wesson, S&W installed hardened steel shims from 1896 until 1908. The practice stopped in 1908 because S&W began using an improved steel for cylinders. ***

Measuring their thickness on my Mod 1896 with calipers and 10X glasses I read .025" for the full length of the notch:

Photos by daivedj

*** At the tine, further research revealed that apparently both .32-20 and .38 HEs did indeed also use cyl notch shims; all 32-20s but only commercial (non-military) model 38s, S&W 1857 -1945, N&J.

This from N&J (Revised Edition).

And-------32-20 HE First Model---1899-1902, #'s 1-5311: "The cylinder stop notches were lined with hardened steel shims to prevent upsetting."

1905 Second Change----33501-45200----------and "The use of hardened steel shims in the cylinder stop notches was discontinued late in the manufacture of this model."---sometime prior to 1909.
The 38 HE 2nd change includes the same notation.

There's also a statement in the 32 HE Model of 1903 2nd change 1906-1909 section indicating the shims were eliminated near the end of production for this model.

In Jinks' A History of Smith & Wesson, the practice stopped in 1908 on all three models because S&W began using an improved steel for cylinders.

 

[Waveski]

It would be interesting to know which is more durable , the shimmed notch or the subsequent (and current)non shimmed cylinder notch made of harder steel. Possible that the hard shim would wear the stop?

That is a pretty good piece of machining for the turn of the century , one which would no doubt be cost prohibitive today.

 

[Hondo44]

Excellent thought.

Fortunately I have a couple of 1896 Models, using the hardened steel inserts in poor condition so the answer is simple, and can be easily seen in the photo above.

Although the guns I refer to are severely worn after years and years of shooting with a total lack of care, the notches hardly show wear. In fact, although they have deeply scored cyl rings between the notches there's no scoring over the inserts. Nor do the cyl stops show more than minor wear. NOTE: These particular models have the stop mounted in the top strap and are spring steel because they must flex to operate.

All other guns I've seen from this period with equivalent wear but without inserts show severely worn and burred over notch edges, some to the point of being inoperable.

But the real eye opener is comparing cyl notches made with current high quality steel on modern era cylinders. Almost immediately, and even with only moderate shooting, modern cyl notches begin to show roll over burring after shooting them, as we've all witnessed. And especially on stainless models.

Frankly one can say the notches appear to show the earliest points of wear and are the weakest link in today's revolver durability. If I were to build a premium revolver today, I believe cyl notch inserts would be a must albeit expensive!

 

[andyinlz]

1900 Catalog/1899 Ad Text

Glad to see that the 1900 catalog discussion of the inserts--quoted above--wasn't marketing nonsense.

Nor was the 1899 ad also shown above.

I am surprised that close study of such sources does not play a greater role in the buzzing of the hive....