There Not.
Look again, The second set which are N-Sq. are shown on my Registered Magnum. The First Pair is the K-Frame set and they reside on my Pre-16 K-32...I have Two pais I don't sell or trade Ropers they are far to hard to locate. 
Model of 1905 with Ropers???
- Thread starter ars1
- Start date
There Not.
Look again, The second set which are N-Sq. are shown on my Registered Magnum. The First Pair is the K-Frame set and they reside on my Pre-16 K-32...I have Two pais I don't sell or trade Ropers they are far to hard to locate. How many 1000's of stocks were made by Roper? Here's a photo of what the King Sight Company sold grips for in the 30's. They only reference Roper's Woodsman grips for $9. So, at $1/hr you'd better be making 2 sets a day for the company. That's 500/yr.
In the case of Gagne, Drew pointed out that he made clocks too. So, there may be only a few 1000 of his stocks. Hammerdown's located two sets, I may have one, makes me want to go to a gun show this weekend.
Aaron
In the case of Gagne, Drew pointed out that he made clocks too. So, there may be only a few 1000 of his stocks. Hammerdown's located two sets, I may have one, makes me want to go to a gun show this weekend.
Aaron
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Sebago Son
Member
I sold, traded or gave Michael Stern at least half a dozen pairs while he was doing his research over the years ... most were large target stocks, but there was also a couple of pairs of "service" sized types, one with a lanyard ring relief... Michael had Ropers for Colt's, S&W and H&R revolvers, maybe others....
Michael Stern
I agree that Michael Stern had quite an incredible number of Roper grips over the years, not to mention the amount of knowledge that he has on the topic. Kevin Williams also has an incredible knowledge on Roper grips too, and has written some very informative articles on the subject.
Here's a link to a post that he posted in where he showed some of his grips at least at the time he took that picture.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/75765-show-your-roper-grips-5.html
I used to own a gun that was his (a custom done gun specified by him and done by Hamilton Bowen) at one time and it had the Ropers with the lanyard ring relief.
I agree that Michael Stern had quite an incredible number of Roper grips over the years, not to mention the amount of knowledge that he has on the topic. Kevin Williams also has an incredible knowledge on Roper grips too, and has written some very informative articles on the subject.
Here's a link to a post that he posted in where he showed some of his grips at least at the time he took that picture.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/75765-show-your-roper-grips-5.html
I used to own a gun that was his (a custom done gun specified by him and done by Hamilton Bowen) at one time and it had the Ropers with the lanyard ring relief.
Sebago Son
Member
Ropers with Lanyard Ring Clearance...
Damn Tom!
That's the pair I was talking about! I remember them well...
They came off a nickeled 6" .44 HE2 that was just about mint... I put the gun back to original stocks, and still have it, but Michael and I often wondered if we shouldn't have lettered that gun to see if it shipped with those Ropers...
Good to see them again after all these years....
Drew
Damn Tom!
That's the pair I was talking about! I remember them well...
They came off a nickeled 6" .44 HE2 that was just about mint... I put the gun back to original stocks, and still have it, but Michael and I often wondered if we shouldn't have lettered that gun to see if it shipped with those Ropers...
Good to see them again after all these years....
Drew
Hello Aaron
I have All Three of Walter Roper's books and he Failed to mention in any of them how many stocks were made by Gagne, and I have never seen any solid Production numbers revealed. Walter Roper was also a Staff writer for The American Rifleman magazine and there were some articles of his in that Publication on Matheis Gagne and his stock making skills, of which I have copies of that as well. I would assume Walter Roper had to keep some sort of log as to how many pairs of his stocks were actually were made to Pay Gagne or his helpers for the amount of them that got produced. Early on, Walter Roper him self tried his skill at making his own stocks and he mention's this in his book & that he failed Miserably, so he had to find a person to Make these stocks for the "Camp Perry shooting teams" as no one else at that time span was offering larger shooting stocks so he chose Matheis Gagne to do the job. From what I have read They worked out of a small Two Car Garage in the Upper New England area and all his wood was air dried in piles that allowed the wood to be natural air stick dried outside his shop. To get a Pair of his custom shooting stock's He first required a hand tracing from his customer's so he knew how to shape them to fit the shooter's hands & His Tools were mainly a simple V-chisel and wooden Mallet to cut the clover leaf checking after he pencil drew on the side panels of his stocks and he had a Large Band saw and belt sander to make certain the stock halves mated up precise after he quarter sawed the panels from the wood that he chose to make them. Matheis Gagne's Son Albert Apprenticed under him as far as stock making went, then later when matheis retired he went on to work for S&W in their factory stock Making department. Albert also was a shooter on the Factory S&W shooting Team and there is a Picture of him holding a S&W hand gun in MR. Roy Jinks Book entitled "Images across America" where he is shown with other Factory S&W shooters holding their Target guns as well. It has not been proven but I would be willing to bet that Albert Gagne played a big part in the design of the Pre-29's Coke Profile Target stocks that S&W Offered back in 1956 due to their Palm swell, oval shaped bottom and over all shape which resembled his Father's past work. So Many questions and so Few answers on these great stocks, leaves us Hunting hard for them these days...
I would love to find one of his clocks someday and have wondered what they would have looked like ?
Another feature of the Roper stocks that I have looked at is the spacing between the left diamond and the ribbon. If you look at the first pair of Hammerdowns stocks, the ones on the Colt above, the ones in Ropers book and the pair for sale on the Colt on GB, they all seem to run together. That is, the diamond and the ribbon touch. Perhaps this observation is skewed by the ones that I have seen, however, I offer it for what it's worth. The pair on the GB gun also have the two square jig marks and the writting etched on the back.
JSR III,
Interesting note on the diamond tip touching the ribbon. The GB listed Colt is the same. So, another tidbit to help identify.
On my K set the front strap area is "squared" plus there's the extra line. It fills up the area nicely. Seems like this would be more likely on the N frames with more area to work with. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
Thanks,
Aaron
Interesting note on the diamond tip touching the ribbon. The GB listed Colt is the same. So, another tidbit to help identify.
On my K set the front strap area is "squared" plus there's the extra line. It fills up the area nicely. Seems like this would be more likely on the N frames with more area to work with. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
Thanks,
Aaron
Why do you think they are Roper grips?
With what I've learned, just seeing a great pair of stocks with credentials only makes us all want to see the rest. We're just being baited here and soon we'll see some pictures of the insides. Right Randy?
I would enjoy a pair of stocks like Randy's, whether they're Ropers, Sanderson's, Herret's, etc. In fact they'd go on a K38 too.
Aaron
I would enjoy a pair of stocks like Randy's, whether they're Ropers, Sanderson's, Herret's, etc. In fact they'd go on a K38 too.
Aaron
Again the stock has the two rectangular jig marks. Are there any dates or words carved into the wood?
From reading Ropers book, "Experiments of a Handgunner", one area that he felt was absolutely critical to accurate shooting was the area between the frame and the back of the trigger guard.
Roper felt that the balance point of most guns, except the smaller pocket automatics, was just forward of the trigger. Hence, he felt that if the gun could be supported by the second finger and not just the grip of the handle, the shooter could hold the gun with a much lighter grip and thus reduce trembling. This area of wood between the frame and trigger guard became known as the "filler".
The second area of concern was the area or "crotch" between the thumb and finger. He felt that if this area could be fattened, it would fill the hand and prevent the cutting of the hand that occurred during recoil. Especially with the larger calibers.
The third area was a place for the thumb to rest. He felt that having a place to rest the thumb was much better for gun control than to just have the thumb waving around in the air.
Based on the above and the evidence of the two rectangular jig marks on the back of the stocks, I would definitely believe the stocks shown by Randy are genuine Ropers.
From reading Ropers book, "Experiments of a Handgunner", one area that he felt was absolutely critical to accurate shooting was the area between the frame and the back of the trigger guard.
Roper felt that the balance point of most guns, except the smaller pocket automatics, was just forward of the trigger. Hence, he felt that if the gun could be supported by the second finger and not just the grip of the handle, the shooter could hold the gun with a much lighter grip and thus reduce trembling. This area of wood between the frame and trigger guard became known as the "filler".
The second area of concern was the area or "crotch" between the thumb and finger. He felt that if this area could be fattened, it would fill the hand and prevent the cutting of the hand that occurred during recoil. Especially with the larger calibers.
The third area was a place for the thumb to rest. He felt that having a place to rest the thumb was much better for gun control than to just have the thumb waving around in the air.
Based on the above and the evidence of the two rectangular jig marks on the back of the stocks, I would definitely believe the stocks shown by Randy are genuine Ropers.
Here's a better picture of the inside panels. Someone scratched their name and the number 55 on the inside of the left panel. Probably a past owner.
I would think that these are probably from the 30's being that the right panel has a dimple for a side plate screw that was not flush like they are on later guns that would have shipped with magnas.
I bought these from an elderly man about ten years ago at an Allentown show. I picked them up to look at them and before I could say a word he told me they were Roper grips made by Matheis Gagne. I was taken aback by his knowledge about Roper grips and who made them.
Other than the trademark scallop design these differ from other Ropers I've owned in that the escutcheons are black and more recessed.
I did find a similar pair of grips pictured on a Colt in Roper's book Pistol and Revolver Shooting.
Ropers....probably. Keepers....For sure.
Thanks Randy,
Excellent photography of superb grips...
And a great period example.
Excellent photography of superb grips...
And a great period example.
phenson
US Veteran
I keep thinking I ought to ask the guy on GB what he will give me for mine. I notice the diamond touches the ribbon on the right side and it doesn't on the left of mine:
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Hello Patrick
That was exactly my Focal Point that I was trying to get across, as "there are Very Noticeable differences in some of Roper's stocks", they are "not all perfect or precise" The Only Information we have to use as a reference was written by Walter Roper, early on in Matheis Gagne's stock making Career as far as I know there was Nothing wrote by The Gagne's meaning Albert or his Father Matheis on standards or changes made during the period of when these stocks were made.
Walter Roper "made no mention in his Books about Matheis's son Albert working for him, but he did".
I feel the reason for that was that Roper's Books were written before Albert came into the scene or became a stock maker in his Father's shop, once these stock's got Popular with The Camp perry shooter's and advertised in magazines Gagne's work load had to be very heavy. If you look close at my K-Frame set {Shown Again below} which has the date scribed in the rear and the square Peg holes "their checking panel border's differ". So, does that mean they are not Original Roper stocks? To me of course not, they were hand made "from free hand Pencil tracing's" and each panel may not be dead perfect in it's borders, diamond placement and such, as I feel my Later made -N-Frame stock's are lacking those Square Peg Jig holes that seem to be the focus or Gagne Tell Tale Trade Mark left in their work. Albert who came later in the stock making for his Father may have come up with a different Jig holding idea that did not leave behind these square Peg holes is my feeling as the checking, Borders and shape of my Larger frame pair is exact to what the smaller K-Frame pair is.As Keith Brown has shared with me, and I Respect his findings and Vast experiences with viewing Roper examples and making his own to Roper's standard's he has seen some other Pairs of Roper's stock's with "noticeable differences in the placement of the diamonds, checking borders as well as some Missing these square Peg Jig holes" like mine are in his past, so I feel it is safe to say there were changes that came after Walter Roper wrote those book's by other stock makers that worked in Matheis Gagne's shop.
I do know that my Great Uncle used to make Custom hand built and crafted Grandfather & Grandmother Clocks for a living and sold them when they were completed to the general public. He found different ways to make them that saved him time so he changed his work ethics and tell tale custom clock cabinet maker signs over time as well. He also got less Precise in his design's and normal work habits as his age wore on as he made them up until he was 96 Years old and since he started out making them when he was 70 you could see subtle differences in his embellishments as he got older, his tedious finished product precise eye appeal changed some due to his age and perhaps his failing eye sight, so perhaps Gagne's work differed due to his age as well. We have to remember all of his stocks were hand made so that to me says there is no exact Patterns or ways he used when making them, that is what makes them so unique.... as we have seen they can and will Differ, no matter what the Books Say, The Man was Human and we all fall short of Being Perfect, no matter what the Task is ...
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phenson
US Veteran
Hammerdown,
Thanks for some great info. I totally agree with everything you said, I hope I didn't give the wrong impression. The checkering pattern on mine is far from uniform from one side to the other just as yours is. I think Keith brown did identify the best, but probably not foolproof way to identify Ropers as being the area that wraps around the trigger guard. I someday hope to possess a set of N frame Ropers. I do know they are becoming more scarce every day though.
Thanks for some great info. I totally agree with everything you said, I hope I didn't give the wrong impression. The checkering pattern on mine is far from uniform from one side to the other just as yours is. I think Keith brown did identify the best, but probably not foolproof way to identify Ropers as being the area that wraps around the trigger guard. I someday hope to possess a set of N frame Ropers. I do know they are becoming more scarce every day though.
D R Greysun
Member
I would like to offer an observation about the grips ars1 started this thread with. Be they Ropers or not they display real craftsmanship. Having followed 2 reference threads and seeing many terrific examples of Roper grips, One thing I find in common with all and quite obviously not represented with ars1 grips. Every Roper presented covered the bottom of the grip frame, not so with ars1's grips. Does that mean they cannot be Roper's? Not a clue it just seemed so obvious yet I could find no mention of it.
D R
D R
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