Model of 1917 converted to Long Colt

[BabbittBar]

I am inquiring about a .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1917. The factory letter states that the revolver was shipped as a .45 ACP and was modified after it was released from military service to fire the .45 Colt cartridge.

The owner's question: If the gun was modified why does the cylinder bear frame serial number and barrel also as the bore diameter is correct to the Long Colt .454 and then marked US Property? Thanks.

 

[DCWilson]

Welcome to the forum. That's a nice 1917 with a low serial number. I see the radially grooved hammer, which is consistent with early production. If the stocks are original you will see the scalloped treatment of the half-found at the top of each cheek piece. You will also see the GHS inspection stamp on the upper left side of the frame in front of the hammer. Those are all characteristics of early production.

The short answer is that the modification of the gun did not require replacement of any of the major original parts. The cylinder chambers were simply bored out to accept the longer cartridge case. If the new configuration permitted occasional misfires, a slightly longer hammer nose would take care of the fact that the rear face of a .45 Colt cartridge is marginally farther away from the face of the recoil shield than the face of a .45 ACP or .45 Auto Rim round. Or a truly finicky conversion specialist could have left the new chambers shallow by a hair so that the cartridge would protrude slightly at the rear of the cylinder and preserve the standard clearance from recoil shield to primer.

Maybe I'm cynical, but the 1917 was a mass-produced contract gun where production rate was a constant bone of contention between the government and the factory until the government put its foot down and simply took over the factory in 1918. Under the circumstances, I would expect to find bores that would slug from .452 to .456, and I would attribute no finely realized intent to a specific diameter in a specific specimen.

I'm writing without benefit of caffeine this morning, so somebody jump in if either my cynicism or my arithmetic is seriously out of compliance with conventional wisdom.

 

[El Biblioitecario]

My guess is that the chambers on the original cylinder were reamed to accept the .45 Colt cartridge. If someone with more gunsmithing knowledge than me--which includes virtually anyone--says that's not possible, I won't argue.

That method would eliminate the problem of the lug on the left of the frame (which keeps the cylinder from sliding backwards when open) being too far forward to accomodate the longer cylinder used for rimmed cartridges and explains the original serial number on the cylinder face. If I am correct, I am betting the base of the .45 Colt cartridge protrudes a bit when chambered. It also answers your question on the barrel dimensions--it is is the original barrel dimensioned for the .45ACP bullet.

ADDENDA: While I was writing, DC Wilson beat me to the punch.

 

[glowe]

Actually, the cylinder on the Model 1917 was originally manufactured slightly shorter to accommodate the half moon clips. The 45 Colt (not Long Colt) should actually have a little free space when the cylinder is closed.

The barrel is, however, of smaller diameter than the normal 45 Colt diameter of .454”. The Model 1917 barrel was manufactured to .4505" to shoot the .452” bullets from the 45 ACP. This apparently has not caused any problems in handling the larger bullet size, since it was a common alteration.

 

[steelslaver]

With fired case fully seated how much room is between the cases and the frame where the firing pin come through. You can measure this with feeler gauges. you should have between .060 and .070 between a non recessed cylinder and the breach face. With a fire case it should be under .010. I find it hard to believe the factory would allow the use of a regular 45acp cylinder as the head space would be huge as the moon clips are about .030. Might they have fit another cylinder and stamped it to match.

 

[jimmyj]

Question: The Model 1917 .45acp cylinder is long enough to accept a factory length .45 Colt cartridge when the chambers are reamed out ?

 

[Muley Gil]

Question: The Model 1917 .45acp cylinder is long enough to accept a factory length .45 Colt cartridge when the chambers are reamed out ?

Yup. The bullet is close to the end of the cylinder, but it will fit.

 

[BabbittBar]

Thanks for your comments.

 

[DWalt]

A .45 ACP cylinder will accommodate the .45 Colt. And I'd bet the .45 Colt re-chambering is slightly short to minimize the headspace when .45 Colt cartridges are used. You should also be able to use .45 ACP cartridges in clips. And that's what I would use. A slightly undersize barrel bore would be of no particular consequence to the use of 0.454" diameter lead bullets. They will just squeeze down to fit.

 

[ddixie884]

Have you tried to chamber a .45 auto-Rim case. to see if the cylinder is the original, or changed out?

 

[pdcrig]

Have you tried to chamber a .45 auto-Rim case. to see if the cylinder is the original, or changed out?

I was wondering about 45 AR as well. This is interesting.

 

[DWalt]

I was wondering about 45 AR as well. This is interesting.

The .45 AR is the same as the .45 ACP, but with a thick rim, so that clips need not be used. It was not in service during WWI, as it did not exist until after WWI, and was introduced by the Peters Cartridge Co. I do not know if it is still loaded or if brass is still available, but I have several hundred rounds and I still shoot some occasionally in my M1917 Colt. .45 AR can be reloaded using .45 ACP dies, but you do need a special shell holder.

 

[deadin]

I just picked up some new Remington AR brass and a RCBS shell holder, so they're still available. I also found the correct 265gr hollow base Webley bullet. I haven't assembled any yet but noticed that the AR case mouth will need to be expanded a little to seat the .455 bullet. (I have Webley dies.)
I also found (and can't remember where) a .045 "shim' that fits over the rear of a shaved cylinder and brings it back up to spec so regular .455 rounds can be used. (I'm going to look into seeing if I can fabricate a few more....)

 

[BabbittBar]

I have shared your comments with the 1917’s owner and have gathered more information:

1. The cylinder on this 1917 won’t close with .45ACP military cartridges and half moon clips.

2. The cylinder does close with Long Colts.

3. Headspace is .067.”

4. Shell head clearance with Long Colts is .009.”

5. Endshake is negligible.

6. Cylinder length is 1.567.”

7. The lug on the left of the frame seems to be where it should be in relation to the cylinder when it’s open.

8. Don’t know about .45 auto-rim.

9. Rats! I forgot to get the B/C gap.

 

[Jack Flash]

If it won't close on moon-clipped .45 ACP, it won't close on Auto Rim either.

It looks like it is an M1917 with a different cylinder fitted sometime after the war (and maybe at the S&W factory).

It looks like the s/n on the cylinder matches the s/n on the butt, which may well indicate the new cylinder was installed by S&W.

 

[Hondo44]

I have shared your comments with the 1917’s owner and have gathered more information:

1. The cylinder on this 1917 won’t close with .45ACP military cartridges and half moon clips.
2. The cylinder does close with Long Colts.
3. Headspace is .067.”
4. Shell head clearance with Long Colts is .009.”
5. Endshake is negligible.
6. Cylinder length is 1.567.”
7. The lug on the left of the frame seems to be where it should be in relation to the cylinder when it’s open. 8. Don’t know about .45 auto-rim.
9. Rats! I forgot to get the B/C gap.

BabbittBar,

Welcome to the forum.

First I have a question;

Is there a shoulder left in the chambers or are they bored thru to form a charge hole? Don't think I see a shoulder in the photo.

Comments on the discussion:
1. There's no star following the s/n on the butt nor a rework date on the left side of grip frame, one or both of these usually being the indication that there was any factory rework. But the existence of the cyl s/n probably precludes an out-of-factory longer cyl replacement since the cyl needs lengthening for this conversion.

2. The dimension you provided for the unloaded headspace and the fact that clipped 45 ACP will not fit indicate that the headspace has been reduced .030"; that in turn indicates the chambers were not 'short reamed' for the Colt rims to stand off the cyl face nor was a longer firing pin needed for reliable ignition.

3. Based on the 1.567" front face to rear face length of the cylinder you provided, it is actually .030" longer than the standard 1917 45 ACP cyl.

Given 1. and 2. above, how then was the cylinder headspace reduced for the 45 Colt?

When one then considers 3. above, the cylinder has apparently been moved rearward with a spacer at the front face. (We just witnessed a case of this here in this forum on a K22 converted to presumably, 22 Rem. Jet which required a longer cyl.)

Also, the star replaced or the rear surfaces reduced .030". Does the underneath of the star have the original s/n? You'll need good light and magnification to see it.

If the cyl was factory length I would suspect the use of front cyl shims, the barrel set back one complete turn with the barrel forcing cone shortened to obtain the proper bar/cyl gap, and again, the extractor star replaced or shortened .030".

In either case, the cyl 'stop stud' in the corner of the cyl window was relieved .030"or replaced for the rearward relocation of the cyl.

Therefore I would carefully inspect the front face of the cyl for some sort of spacer extension.

 

[Bill Bates]

I'm I missing something wouldn't replacing the shorter .45acp cylinder with the .030 in. longer .45 Colt cylinder take care of the headspace issue.

The lug would also would need to be milled accept the longer cylinder.

This 1917 commercial was converted to .45 Colt. All the parts are serial numbered where they should be serial numbered. The cylinder is a longer .45 Colt cylinder. The only thing indicating S&W work is the diamond stamp <> by the barrel serial number. There is no rework star or date stamped on the frame.

It is kind of nice to see another 1917 that has been converted to .45 Colt Ctg. in the same professional manner.

 

[Hondo44]

I'm I missing something wouldn't replacing the shorter .45acp cylinder with the .030 in. longer .45 Colt cylinder take care of the headspace issue.

The lug would also would need to be milled [to] accept the longer cylinder.

This 1917 commercial was converted to .45 Colt. All the parts are serial numbered where they should be serial numbered. The cylinder is a longer .45 Colt cylinder. The only thing indicating S&W work is the diamond stamp <> by the barrel serial number. There is no rework star or date stamped on the frame.

It is kind of nice to see another 1917 that has been converted to .45 Colt Ctg. in the same professional manner.

Bill,

You have a very cool commercial version of the 1917 Army with a serial # after the army contract range and evidence of its assembly and conversion by the factory far after the war and before being sold as a new gun on the civilian market. Hence the absence of the star and date stamps which are only used when guns are returned to the factory for conversion or rework of any kind.

The difference and the problem with the 1917 that BabbittBar is discussing is that it has a very early 4 digit serial # in the military contract serial range and has the US Army stamp on the butt and if it has military inspection stamps like the GHS or flaming bomb stamps and "US Property" under the barrel. That would make it highly unlikely that it was a factory conversion and sold on the civilian market like yours, and a bit of a mystery, however not impossible! We can never say never with S&W guns.

This shows the flamimg bomb stamp. The early guns can have the GHS stamp in this location instead.

BabbittBar should encourage the owner to get a S&W letter for the gun and although we see no diamond by the barrel serial # in the photo, there does appear to be an S after it. That could also be evidence of service department work before leaving the factory and a better photo would be nice to see. And more pics of where the inspector stamps should be would be very helpful. I would not say that it couldn't be a quite rare 1917 like yours!

 

[shouldazagged]

Can't add a thing, BabbittBar, but welcome to the forum, from Louisville. Stick around, this is the best gun forum I've ever found.