Model of 91

[Gazz]

A LGS has a S&W .38 single action marked Model of 91 on the rib. The barrel latch, cylinder, stocks and frame all have a matching sn. The frame is also marked with a star on the butt which I believe indicates it was back to S&W for something at one time. From what I have read in the SCS&W, these are marked Model of 1891 and not Model of 91 so I wonder about this. It is an earlier piece in the production with a 4 digit serial number (5327 I think) which I hope can be read in in the pictures. Lock up is tight as is function and the bore is quite good with just a few small spots of darkness which may clean out. Nice case colors on the trigger guard and hammer too while the plating has peeled here and there, especially on the right side. I am thinking this is a pre 1899 revolver as well. What would an approximate value be for this? The shop has not priced it yet and has allowed me to take pictures but it may end up on Gunbroker if my offer is not interesting to him. That is if I can afford it at the moment. Thanks for any comments!

 

[1891SingleShot]

The 'Model of 91' is the correct marking. These don't come up for sale very often, so value is hard to determine. I try to buy them when I see them, if I can afford them at the time, and I have managed to accumulate six of these interesting revolvers. I paid as little as $450 for one that has some finish issues because I felt it was still a good deal. Two of them came from the Gary Garbrecht auction and with buyers premium and shipping, they were around $950. One of the others was also in the $900 price range and two of them were around the $1300 price range. Five of mine are in pretty nice shape and I don't think I would let any of those go for under $2000 because they are just that hard to find. I think all but one were purchased 10+ years ago, and the last one I picked up last fall was one of the $1300 ones. For whatever reason, they don't seem to be real sought after but by a few collectors. I collect the old single shots so the 3rd Model Single Actions (Model of 91's) fit in nicely, as they are the same frame as the single shots and you could remove the barrel and cylinder and replace it with the single shot barrel. Value on this one???? Because of the finish issues, I would say maybe $500-$800??? Like I said, it's hard to pin down a value because you just don't see them for sale often enough and if someone wants one bad enough, it could sell for $1000+. Hope this helps you out and let us know if you end up with this one.

 

[rct269]

My knee-jerk reaction is save your money and wait for a better one (in light of the unfortunate condition of the finish). That said, you may have a rather loooooooooooong wait. While these guns are not rare, they're scarce in this country, the bulk of them having been shipped to Europe and South America (so I'm told by Jinks).

I have one, a 6" Target #22530, shipped June 7, 1910. It is the only one I ever encountered for sale. Standard guns may be more plentiful. Mine is one not marked as Model of '91 (simply the one line barrel address). Gary Lowe, who has forgotten more than I know about these things, opines these "one line" guns (with matching numbers) are very rare. I suspect those carrying the one line address do so for no special reason. Maybe the regular Model of '91 stamping die was broken that day---so they used another one. He'll be along to help you sooner rather than later. If Terry Wagner, who specializes in these revolvers and their single shot offspring sees this, he's a walking encyclopedia on the topic.

You have the SCSW, so you know the values published there. While the values shown in SCSW-4 have increased substantially over those in SCSW-3 for higher condition guns, those for lower condition examples have not-------which is pretty much the reason to take a pass on this gun.

My bottom line is the same as the top----wait for a better example.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, while mine letters as shipped as a target gun, the prevailing wisdom is it wasn't born that way. The latch/sight isn't numbered. THAT scared the wits out of me at the time, but I bought it anyway (at an attention getting price)----and sweated out waiting for the letter. Jinks opines all this came about thus: An order was received for a 6" Target. They had none in inventory, and were left with the options of declining the order or making a gun. So they made one. A standard gun was taken from inventory, given to the Service Department with instructions to make a target gun. They swapped the sights, and voila----a target gun!! Given the Service Department works on one gun at a time, and no batch finishing was involved, there was no need to number the latch---so they didn't. (They may have swapped the grips at the same time. They too are not numbered, so we'll likely never know.)

 

[JSR III]

While an interesting and somewhat scarce version to run across according to the wise folks above, I would be reluctant to pay high dollars based on the condition. While the left side is not too bad the right side looks pretty gross.

The audience for antiques is getting smaller as the baby boomer gun buyers also become antiques or go to the big gun show in the sky. The younger gun purchasers today seem more interested in black plastic guns that go bang 15 or 20 times without reloading and aren't into reloading or seeking out older out of production ammo as many of these older guns require.

All that said, if I saw that gun in a LGS, I would be a buyer for a few hundred but probably not much more.

 

[glowe]

The 38 Smith & Wesson Single Action, 3rd Model revolver is an interesting revolver, having been a direct descendant of the Baby Russian, which was the first 38 S&W revolver manufactured by the company. I follow dozens of auctions, use all the gun websites and hardly ever see on for sale, so if you want that one, I would say buy it since it will be a very long time before you run across another example. The nickel finish has some challenges, but would guess it would clean up quite nicely with the use of a polishing compound.

While there were over 28,000 of all configurations made, there are not many in the single-action 5 shot configuration in the US today. A few years ago, I did some research on the gun, as a result of picking up a nice 5" Target Model. It can be estimated that only about 5,000 to 7,500 were available in the revolver configuration for sale in the US. The rest were either made as 38 Mexican, 22, 32, and 38 Single Shot pistols, or were exported. You can check out a Commentary I did: http://smith-wessonforum.com/blog.php?b=101

All 38 Single Action revolvers and single shots are classified as antiques by the BATF. SCSW4 indicates that the value of a 38 SA revolver with standard trigger guard is as follows: VG - $800, Fine (80%) - $1000, and Excellent (95%) - $1700.

 

[1891SingleShot]

Mine is one not marked as Model of '91 (simply the one line barrel address). Gary Lowe, who has forgotten more than I know about these things, opines these "one line" guns (with matching numbers) are very rare. I suspect those carrying the one line address do so for no special reason.

One of mine is an early numbers matching revolver with a serial number of 2213, and it has the one line barrel address. I thought maybe on the early ones they were using barrels from the .38 Double Actions until production got ramped up, but that is just speculation on my part. Factory letter states it was shipped on April 23rd, 1891.

 

[1891SingleShot]

Here's another little tidbit of information that I found interesting. The two 1891's that came from Gary Garbrecht's collection were numbers 15915 and 16309. My dad was a member of the SWCA and you could e-mail Mr. Jinks and he would provide the month and year the firearms shipped free of charge. Well, 15915 shipped in May of 1899 and 16309 shipped in August of 1896. Three years difference in ship date with the slightly higher serial number shipping first. So when we talk about how S&W's didn't ship in order, here's proof that there were sometimes large gaps in ship dates.

Also, according to Mr. Garbrecht's notes, serial number 15915 was shipped to Iver Johnson in Boston, Mass. Now I don't know if it was the firearms company or just a guy named Iver Johnson. If Mr. Garbrecht had a factory letter, it wasn't included when we purchased the revolver. I believe it just may have been mentioned in the auction description. According to Google, the Iver Johnson Company was located in Worcester and then Fitchburg, Mass, but I found that their holsters are marked 'Iver Johnson, Boston' on the back. Perhaps a factory letter would specify if it was Iver Johnson Arms Company???

 

[1891SingleShot]

UPDATE TO PREVIOUS THREAD!!!

I think I may have solved the mystery. After further google research, apparently Iver Johnson Co. had a sporting goods store in Boston. That makes more sense that the revolver would have been shipped to their sporting goods store.

"In 1900 Iver Johnson bought the John P. Lovell Arms Co and with the increased catalogue, operated as Iver Johnson Sporting Goods. During the 20th century, Iver Johnson Sporting Goods Co became a large supplier of items manufactured by different companies. The Sporting Goods division was located in the Iver Johnson Building, on the corner of Cornhill and Washington St, seen above. (This area of Boston is now the site of the City Hall Plaza)."

 

[JSR III]

Yes, that is correct. I have several .22/32 HFT's listed in my database that shipped to Iver Johnson in Boston. The earliest I show went out on 6/16/1911 and the latest on 8/15/1939.

One must remember that S&W did not record manufacture date except in the foreman's day books for paying workers and the shipping department records which Roy Jinks uses recorded when a piece of inventory got billed and shipped out.

The two guns mentioned above, 15915 and 16309 although shipped 3 years apart may have been built on the same day or only weeks apart. We won't ever know for sure unless someone comes up with the day books for those years.

 

[rct269]

In the for what it's worth category--------------

Mine (6" Target #22530) was shipped to "Markt & Hammacker", 193 West St., New York City, NY. It carries the Lyman Ivory Slide sights.

Ralph Tremaine