Models 24/624, is any problem with barrel using hotter handloads?

[Onty]

Somewhere I found that few folks experienced barrel cracking in forcing cone area, when used heavier 44 Special Keith's loads (1200 fps) using Lyman 429421, or H&G #503, or their derivatives. Apparently, longer protrusion of unsupported barrel shank makes it weak, and cannot take heavier loads.

Anybody knows more about this issue? Thanks!

 

[rwsmith]

Man.....

...1200 fps is AWFULLY HOT for a .44 Special. I don't doubt it worked for Elmer Keith, but he didn't mind destroying guns if he could get the performance out of them. I believe I would stick with published data at a max of around 1000 fps than risk damaging a great and scarce gun. Older data may stretch that out some, but I sure wouldn't approach 1200 fps.

My old Sierra book has max loads (use with caution) that give 1100 fps out of a 4" barrel using H110 and 2400 powders. and a 240gr bullet. I consider these to be HOT hunting loads and don't approach max because they get plenty raucous early on in working up loads. Hopefully you have a Chronograph and can work up loads that are suitable for you.

 

[Alk8944]

I have never heard of any issues with any N-Frames. The barrel dimensions of the .44 Special guns are identical to the same guns in .44 Magnum except for a little longer protrusion of the barrel shank, about 1/8". I agree that 1200 FPS with a 245-260 grain bullet would be a bit hot based on SAAMI specifications, but the Magnums were loaded to 1500 FPS with the same bullets! I would keep it down a bit, like not over 1100 FPS or so, but there should be no concern with barrel shank cracking! You are thinking about K-Frame .357 revolvers when hot-rodded

 

[stansdds]

1200 fps with a 245 grain bullet in 44 Special? You are into 44 Magnum territory and I suspect the chamber pressure is at least double the safe 44 Special chamber pressure as defined by SAAMI. I would not worry about the barrel, I'd be more worried about bulging or rupturing the cylinder.

 

[Onty]

I found one thread where it was posted story about issues when hot loading M24/M624. As a matter of fact, I even participated there, forgot that ("Mea culpa"):

"JStacy: OP you mention the S&W mod 24 handling near 44 mag loads. I have seen a couple of Mod24 & 624's fall victim to that thinking with bulged and cracked forcing cones. The load was the Keith bullet and 2400 load Elmer used. I have a vintage Mod 24 and it gets fed 7.0/unique and 240 csw and it is very accurate with that load. I also have a Super Redhawk to shoot 44 mag loads out of. I would not exceed the max 44 special loads listed in most manuals in any 44 spl. Hot 44 spls is the reason they came out with the 44 mag in DA revolvers."

1200 fps with a 245 grain bullet in 44 Special? You are into 44 Magnum territory and I suspect the chamber pressure is at least double the safe 44 Special chamber pressure as defined by SAAMI. I would not worry about the barrel, I'd be more worried about bulging or rupturing the cylinder.

I might be wrong, but I think that for the same pressure cylinder on M24/M624 shouldn't be weaker than cylinder on M29/M629.

 

[stansdds]

Are you 100% positive that the cylinder of your 44 Special is heat treated exactly the same as that of a Model 29? That's where the chamber pressure can be the issue.

 

[Onty]

Are you 100% positive that the cylinder of your 44 Special is heat treated exactly the same as that of a Model 29? That's where the chamber pressure can be the issue.

No, I do not have such information. However, I will be very surprised if 44 Special cylinder on M24/M624 isn't made from high quality steel as their magnum revolvers.

Last year I obtained spare cylinder for Ruger Old Army and few weeks back I decided to fit it to the frame at local machine shop. Also, I asked to counter sink cylinder bores. I can tell you that noted cylinder is made from hard, strong steel. I bet same material and heat treatment as on Ruger magnum revolvers.

 

[murphydog]

I don't know if this is a practical (you have a .44 Special in which you want to use overpressure loads) or a hypothetical discussion.

Heavy use of 240 gr/1200 + fps loads in a .44 Special will put extra stress on it. Eventually it will shoot loose or stress it to the point that it will need rebuilding, or can no longer be used.

You can imagine S & W will not want to reveal (if true) that .44 Special and Magnum cylinders are made using the same processes. Someone may want to use Magnum loads in the Special.

7.5 gr Unique with 240 gr will get you about 900-1000 fps at normal pressures and will put nice holes in paper, or would be effective on non-paper targets if needed.

Good luck in your decision.

 

[spin132]

The barrel dimensions of the .44 Special guns are identical to the same guns in .44 Magnum except for a little longer protrusion of the barrel shank, about 1/8".

I have a 3" 624 in 44 special and a 3" 629 in 44 mag. Although the barrel dimensions may be similar, the 624 has a tapered barrel whereas the 629 has a heavy barrel. No idea if the tapered barrel is weaker, just an observation.

Mike

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[jtcarm]

Get a .44 Magnum.

 

[Miracle Man]

Get a .44 Magnum.

Same thing I was thinking.

 

[6GUNSONLY]

I have a 4" 24-3. I will confess to having shot a couple of hundred rounds loaded with the Ray Thompson design 429244 and up to 17 grains of 2400. I shot two deer with this load. Since, I have backed off a bit to loads at around 1000 fps, mostly now loading AA#9. As others posted, I have .44 magnums if I feel a need for more than 1000 fps power level.

 

[stansdds]

Get a .44 Magnum.

A lot safer when you are seeking 44 Magnum or near 44 Magnum ballistics.

 

[rwsmith]

The old Sierra book......

I have a 4" 24-3. I will confess to having shot a couple of hundred rounds loaded with the Ray Thompson design 429244 and up to 17 grains of 2400. I shot two deer with this load. Since, I have backed off a bit to loads at around 1000 fps, mostly now loading AA#9. As others posted, I have .44 magnums if I feel a need for more than 1000 fps power level.

My Sierra book gives 16.3 grains max for a 240 gr SWC. 17 grains is a sturdy load for sure.

 

[6GUNSONLY]

17 grains was not an unpublished load but one I decided for my purposes was too much.

 

[rwsmith]

That sounds like me.....

17 grains was not an unpublished load but one I decided for my purposes was too much.

The Sierra book gives a full grain over present day manuals for .38 Spec. using Unique with a 125 gr JHP . I was shooting my Model 10 so I'm sure that it would have taken it, had I chosen to go that far. I didn't. I worked up to 6.4 grain and thought, "That's plenty."

 

[Onty]

Get a .44 Magnum.

I do have 44 Magnum revolvers; stainless Ruger SBH 5.5" barrel, converted to Bisley, blue Bisley 7.5", and Redhawk 7.5", sold recently. Well, Redhawk was gone because I found it too heavy to carry while hunting. Yeah, it can take top loads that will wreck many lighter revolvers, but are those loads really necessary? I would say no, unless somebody wants to knock down big buck or wild boar on 100-150 yards, see first post here Revolver for handgun hunting, another view | The High Road . In that respect, E. Keith was right on the money 1950-ties asking for new round, using 44-250 bullet, lunched at 1200 fps.

Considering all above, IMO M24/M624 with load 250-260 grains at 1100, maximum 1200 fps, is optimum combination for up to 50 yards.

The latest revolvers Keith was carrying around were M29 with 4" barrel. I asked myself "why", because his famous, custom made #5, had 5.5" barrel. Looks to me that Keith just didn't like weight of 6" M29. And whoever at S&W made decision to create 6" and 6.5" M24/M624, "had seen the light". Unfortunately, with hotter loads in M24/624 came problem JStacy was pointing.

Regarding weight issue, somebody from S&W paid attention and "Mountain Gun" in 44 Magnum was created, for those who prefer shorter barrels.

Taking in account everything, if there is revolver I would like to have from S&W, let call it Outdoorsman, it will be M629 with same slim barrel 6.5" as on M624. Who knows, my wish could be one day reality. One solution will be to scrape 6.5" barrel from M624, and install it on M629-3 or -4...

 

[rwsmith]

Since we are wishing....

I wonder how that combo would be in an L-Frame, maybe a little beefed up in the right places?

 

[Onty]

I wonder how that combo would be in an L-Frame, maybe a little beefed up in the right places?

I am afraid installing barrel from M624 on 44 Special L frame wouldn't work. Distances from chamber center to cylinder center are different.

 

[rwsmith]

Would need some modifications...

I am afraid installing barrel from M624 on 44 Special L frame wouldn't work. Distances from chamber center to cylinder center are different.

I was thinking more of an 'L' frame barrel modded to .44 special. If they can put a .44 Special on a 'K' frame, I'm sure they could put one on an 'L' Frame.