Modern .32-20

[Green Frog]

I can't speak for the various 32-20 handholds, but the 125 grain NOE bullet number 314008 fills my Model 617 sourced cylinder right out to within a sixteenth of an inch of the front face, which tells me I should get good accuracy if lack of bullet jump is a significant factor. I'm figuring that Model 617 cylinders are cut from the same billets as Model 66 cylinders and there is more steel left in the walls of a 32/327 than a 357, so until I hear otherwise, I'll continue to shoot reasonably stout loads in mine. If I do add a 32-20 cylinder to the mix, the same basic parameters will apply so I'll stay under the hotter rifle loads and call it good. JMHO and certainly not a recommendation to anyone else.

As for practicality of a build, I guess that's really in the eye of the beholder or the hand of the user. Since Project 616 can handle any straight sided pistol case from 32 ACP to 327 FM with aplomb, has adjustable sights to make necessary adjustments for ammo change, and is in a handy size for holster carry in the field, it strikes me as pretty practical. With proper ammo it can be used to pop heads off of grouse, harvest bunny rabbits and squirrels, and even end the depredations of coyotes, the biggest source of unwanted predation around here.

Froggie

 

[DB404]

Recylindering with K22 cylinder or a Model 48 cylinder and assuming its as strong as the cylinder in a 19 or whatever K frame model due to it possibly being cut from the same round stock and has thicker chamber walls than the same diameter cylinder in .38 or .357 would seem to ignore the importance of the heat treatment of the cylinders and the pressures of the cartridges. It's my understanding that, depending on its age, a blue steel K 22 cylinder may not be heat treated and may not be 4140 type steel. I do know Andy Horvath wouldn't put together anything unsafe, so please don't interpret my comments as demeaning anybody's work or ideas talked about here; as a matter of fact, I'd love to get a .327 cylinder for my 16-4 4", but I wouldn't want it to end up with bulged chambers because I used the wrong donor cylinder for the build. I'd love for somebody to chime in here who has more knowledge of Smith & Wesson metallurgy than I have.
Dave

 

[Jebus35745]

Andy built 2 custom .32 revolvers for me. I could have had them done in .327. I wanted them to shoot .32 long initially. Told Andy I wanted the max accuracy and if made in .327 I could use the .32 long in it or .32 magnum. He says to stick with the .32 long just to be sure. His chambers are tight.

Point is. He would have made the guns in .327 if I wanted, I'm sure the metal is strong enough. Last January I had my 16-4 cylinder reamed to .327 by him. Not sure I ruined the value, someone may want the gun for .327. Larry

 

[Bullet Bob]

I don't want S&W to make a modern .32-20. I have a couple of boxes of ammunition that I never shot in my lever action in that caliber. If S&W made a handgun, I'd have to buy it, and I'm trying really hard not to buy any more.

 

[DWalt]

I have a Ruger 30 carbine Blackhawk that I converted to 32 wcf several years ago.

That was exactly what I was going to suggest. .30 Carbine Ruger BHs are not that difficult to find and the conversion of the cylinder is simple. However, you can download a .30 Carbine case to get the same ballistic results as the .32-20, so why bother?

"My only concern about original S&W 32-20 parts is the cylinder... is it late enough to have the improved heat treating? My 32-20 M&P is about 2000 too early, so it gets babied"

That is no issue at all. Heat treatment adds nothing. The .32-20 is a low pressure cartridge and there is a great deal of steel around those chambers, far more than necessary to handle any .32-20 load.

 

[Green Frog]

This is secondhand information for me, but I've been told that at least some R***r Blackhawks in 30 carbine will accept and fire a 32-20 round with no alteration. if this suits one's desire for a 32-20 handgun, so much the better..."no guns were harmed in the making of this movie!" OTOH, with a DA revolver, this is not an option and I would want a late original or one built with a "modern" frame and cylinder to insure I had at least a little extra margin of safety with a round that can easily be loaded to "stout levels" perhaps without realizing one has "crossed the line."

For a high performance 32 pistol round, I'm still convinced that the 327 FM is probably the best way to go, in all modern, strong steels. I've found that even that invites one to venture into dangerous pressures unless careful and very aware of what's happening... don't ask me how I know these things! I'm continuing to channel Skeeter from when he personally told me how much potential was available with the then-new 32 H&R as compared to how limited he then felt the 32-20 to be. "If it was good enough for Skeeter..."

TMS&ISTI (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

Froggie

 

[oddshooter]

Hey Froggie,

I've heard the same thing about Ruger 30 carbine shooting 32-20. I love the 32-20 and have thought several times about converting my 30 carbine.


My problem is I can't understand how the bottle necked 32-20 brass would handle the lack of support when firing in that straight walled 30 carbine cylinder. I would think you would at least expand the brass to fill the cylinder and loose the bottle neck.

I suppose that's fine if you don't mind losing the 32-20 brass. If that's true; like the man said, "Why not just go ahead and shoot the 30 carbine?"

Is this idea for people with 32-20 rounds and nothing else to shoot them in?

Prescut

 

[jag22]

I reload both and have gotten them mixed up more than once. It would be interesting to see what the 32-20 brass does. Would it end up being straight walled? On the other hand, I've never read anything that would make me want shoot that pistol. They're loud, they kick and they shoot out flame like a dragon. No thanks.

 

[DB404]

I'd not heard about some Ruger SBHs in .30 carbine accepting .32-20 Win, but then, there is a lot of stuff I don't hear. Looking at an old copy of Cartridges of the World, I was surprised to see the base diameter of the .32-20 is listed at 0.353, while the .30 Carbine is listed at 0.355, so that wouldn't be a hindrance. The cartridge cases are slightly different in length: 1.29 for the Carbine and 1.32 for the .32-20. Bullet diameter for the Carbine is .308; for the .32-20, .312. I'm not a gunsmith and I've never had a desire to play one in a movie, but it looks like perhaps if the chamber throats of the .30 Carbine SBH were a little generous, one could get the .32-20 to fit. Tho I wonder what throats like that would do for the accuracy of the Carbine round when firing jacketed ammo. BTW, Barnes mentions that the .32-20 can chamber and fire the .32 S&W Short & Long, the .32 Colt, the .32 ACP, the 7.5mm Nagant and the .310 Greener Cadet. Versatility! Re pressure; as loaded by the factories these days, it is a low pressure round. That wasn't always the case (no pun intended) and there are lots of old S&W Hand Ejectors out there with bulged chambers from shooting factory loaded carbine ammo. C. E. Harris once told me that most of the old Smiths he's looked at had that problem. I agree, it would be fun to have a modern .32-20 Smith; I also agree that the .32 H&R (properly loaded) in a 16-4 and the .327 in whatever platform one has, will both perform to .32-20 levels.

 

[Green Frog]

Oddly enough, the Lyman 310 tools use the same neck sizer and seating die for 32-20 as 30 carbine. This in spite of the fact that Cartridges of the World shows the carbine neck diameter as .009" larger. HMMMM.

 

[Weldmeister]

I have a .30 Carbine Blackhawk.. Wonderful gun, but much heavier than what I envision. I just want a K frame, non underlugged 4 or 6 inch .32-20. I wish I could go back in time when someone was still reboring and rifling short barrels! Thank you all for your input!

 

[Green Frog]

Weldmeister, there are still some reboring operations out there... you just have to look for them. The go-to guy that a lot of the big name conversion specialists used passed away a couple of years ago, but they are still doing conversions, so there must be someone doing reboring and re-rifling.

You're probably out of luck if you want stainless as all of the commonly available rimfire barrels are of the double lug type. In blue, however, there are lots of choices available in 4 and 6" and even a few in 8 3/8". I have often thought that a 32-20 K-frame Masterpiece with a 6" barrel would be a very desirable addition to my arsenal, but idle speculation is as far as I've gotten.

Froggie

 

[Weldmeister]

Ok, I have an AK47 barrel. I know it isn't the best diameter for this project at .310" but I can adapt in my bullet sizing. As a machinist, I have no problem cutting and turning it down to make a barrel liner for this project. I envision boring out the Smith and Wesson barrel to just a little more than the threaded barrel shank, threading the liner to the proper thread and then installing the liner using either Brownell's epoxy or maybe even silver soldering it. The cylinder work is something I need to work out. I get figuring the headspace involved.. My friend has a .32-20 chamber reamer.. Any thoughts on any traps involved here?

 

[oddshooter]

OK, a little more information on shooting 32-20 in a 30 carbine.

I did it and it shot nice little groups. The brass ejected without problems; but, the brass however had totally lost its bottle-neck. It had taken on the shape of the 30 Carbine straight walled cylinder. It was now a straight walled brass case which I don't want.

I grew up with the 32-20 60 years ago and so nostalgia is strong with this caliber for me. I prefer it over my 327fm's and my 32mag's.

It doesn't make sense to lose my 32-20 brass by shooting in a 30 carbine. I have several excellent 32-20 shooters so it doesn't make any sense to me at all. It can be done, but I don't get why. I can handload for the 30 carbine for those rare occasions it gets taken for a dance.

I'm now seriously considering just reaming that 30 carbine to 32-20. It is a Liberty Arms from Mod. , Nevada in SAA. I have been totally skunked in trying to find even a reference to them. Anybody?


Prescut

 

[Green Frog]

If your 32-20 brass is blown out to a cylindrical profile in the current chambers, all the reaming in the world won't help... the chamber is already too big in those areas where the straightening is occurring. Replacing or sleeving the cylinder are your only options. Since the company that made your revolver doesn't seem to be available to provide spare parts, the sleeving option may be your only one.

Froggie

 

[Green Frog]

Google Search function can be our friend, Prescut. It appears that your SAA from Liberty was simply marked that way for sale by a company here in the US, but was actually made by Uberti sometime in the '60s or '70s or perhaps later. Probably if you look on the bottom of the barrel or some other inconspicuous place you will find a small stamp that says "made in Italy." It might be worth your effort to contact Uberti to see whether you can get a 32-20 cylinder for it. Liberty Arms apparently sold a "Kansas Model" made by Armi Jager and a "Nevada Model" made by Uberti, but I've found some evidence that AJ may have made some Nevada Models as well.

Uberti's products in SAA have been sold by Navy Arms, Cimmaron, Taylor's and perhaps others, so I shouldn't be surprised that someone calling themselves "Liberty Arms" marketed some as well. Back in the late '50s until about the early '80s, it seems there were lots of folks marketing single actions until a few manufacturers and importers sort of took over the market... Great Western was an early player, as was EMF. The latter is still going, while the former is long gone.

Froggie

 

[Hondo44]

Only new model .30 Carbine Ruger Blackhawks will chamber and shoot 32-20. The .30 Carbine Blackhawks and Super BHs have the same frame and cyl size.

Ruger's NM .30 Carbine Blackhawk will shoot off the shelf .32-20, no re-chambering needed. If you reload, you can even reload 32-20 in .30 Carbine dies and the case necks will not be worked as much. Use a .32-20 shell holder. There's a difference in bullet diameters, .312" vs. .308" but they shoot with fine accuracy.

The .312" bullets may tend to raise pressure slightly in the smaller .308" barrel diameter although of no consequence in the robust Ruger cyl and way under its max pressure limits. And you may have some leading with lead bullets depending on hardness.

So if you reload you can use .308 bullets in your 32-20s.

Even though the .30 Carbine is a rimless round it's a good thing the NM lets the .30 case head stick out more than just the rim thickness since the .32-20 rim is .016" thicker. But may bind slightly in some revolvers and the rear cyl face just needs a slight facing off.

.32-20 cannot be fired in OM Ruger .30 Carbine cyls as is. The chambers seat the .30 carbine rim flush, so the rimmed 32-20 case head won't fit in the end of the .30 chamber. A simple recess cut in the chambers to the .061" thickness of the .32-20 rim is needed in the OM chambers or facing off the rear of the cylinder .061", will fix that.

 

[oddshooter]

Green Frog,

Thanks for that search. I think you are right on target.

I discovered a review on Cascity. It appears to be an I. G. I. , Italian Gunmakers International build for Liberty Arms, which lasted 17 months. Probably an Uberti from around 1969.

The barrel says Mod. Nevada. I thought the dot was a comma and it was made in Nevada. Nope, it is a Model Nevada.

The reviewers thought it was well made using good steels. I have found the same.

I meant to say I was considering reaming the barrel of .308 to a more .32 (32-20) caliber standard of .312. And yes, I would need to replace the cylinder.

I'm going to leave it as is. A pretty cool 50 year old 30 Carbine.

Prescut
I'm still shocked it shot my 32-20 bullets at .313" diameter so well. I'm thinking some .309 or even .310 might be just the ticket.

 

[oddshooter]

Hondo,

Much appreciated the recommendations on sizing and measurements. I will now check my clearance on that face for rim thickness.

I shoot almost all softer cast with PC and so I like the bullets .001 or .002 larger.

 

[oddshooter]

While I have you knowledgeable guys' attention.

On the Liberty 30 carbine:
I pin gauged the cylinders and got all right at .311"
I slugged the bore and got bore size (land to land) of .309"-. (edit: should say .300")
I got a groove size (groove to groove) of .300" (edit: should say .309") (see next 3 posts)
Those are correct with published specs.

I would like the bullet to fit the cylinder exits, .311", without tilting. A .311" or even a .310" would do.

I usually select a cast bullet .001" - .002" oversize to obturate and fill the bore and the grooves (.309 + .002 = .311).

So I need a .311 for both the cylinders and bore.
I'm thinking I could see some serious pressure from trying to mash that .311 bullet into .300" grooves.
Of course I've already mashed a .313 from the 32-20 trial through that barrel without incident.

Is my math correct?
Should I be concerned?


Prescut