Mountain Gun Question

[hastings]

I recently acquired a S&W Mountain Gun in .41mag (a blued one, and it does have the lock). It has the nice Herrett wood grips, box and papers. I had never tried .41mag before, and find it to have quite a punch. Anyway, I love the platform (the Mountain Gun) but don't care for the cartridge, and was thinking of trading it for a mountain gun in 45colt (a blued one, preferably). Am I crazy to want to trade a .41 for a 45colt? I love 45colt revolvers. I'd probably carry the mountain gun while bear hunting, but I hunt with a Marlin 1895 Cowboy 45-70, with nine in the tube and one in the chamber, so I would not feel undergunned without a magnum handgun.

Can the 45colt Mountain Guns handle stout loads? I'm not talking +P loads, just heavier bullets at reasonable velocities, like a Buffalo Bore 255 grain lead going around 1000fps. I am not a fan of hand-cannons, and would rather use heavier projectiles moving at less than 1100fps.

I have a Ruger 45colt/acp bisley convertible that should handle the heaviest stuff just fine, but it isn't a Smith.

What do you think? Would this be a reasonable trade, and will the Mountain Gun suit my purposes in a non-magnum caliber?

I anxiously await some informed replies.
Thanks
Hastings

 

[colt_saa]

That is a VERY tough choice. I own four of them. One of each caliber in blue and one of each in stainless. Though I switch out the factory supplied Ahrends grips for the older round butt combat grips.

However, for a shooter that does not hand load, the 45 Colt is the better selection.

There is no doubt that the Model 25 can handle all ammunition that is loaded to SAAMI standards. However, those need to be a bit on the anemic side to protect the 100 year old firearms that are out there.

The problem is that there is no SAAMI established +P pressure level for this cartridge. So something that is loaded 100% over standard pressure can call itself +P just like a cartridge that is loaded 1% over standard pressure.

Being a hand loader for more than three decades now, it is hard to comment on what all of the little boutique ammunition companies have begun offering in recent years. I just tailor my ammunition to my firearm and need. Yes, I do load the 45 Long Colt ammunition or my Model 25s above SAAMI standard pressure.

The few times that I have tested some of these little shops ammunition for various articles, it almost never met it's claims.

Myself, the only ammunition that I purchase is from one of the big boys......Winchester, Remington, Hornady, Federal, Speer, etc.

 

[Joni_Lynn]

Look at how thick the metal is inside the cylinder notch area, it's very thin and I myself don't feel comfortable pushing these cylinders very far. The locking notch is right over the center of the chamber, the thinnest spot.

 

[Bullseye Smith]

I like mine better, but I would trade the 41 for the 45 colt. Here is my "L" frame 357 Mountain Gun.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

The 25-5/mountain guns have the same cylinder wall thickness, and steels as a 625 or 25-2, and they are rated for plus P ammo by S&W. That ammo is running at 23,000 psi, so yea, you can run a mountain gun warmer than the anemic stuff put out by the big companies. I use 18.5 grains of 2400 (the old Keith load) under a 265 grain cast swc (452424 Lyman lold), standard primers, and Win brass. I get 1,050 fps out of my 4" 25-5 with it. That load will do anything that needs doing in the lower 48, and won't harm your gun. That is a plus p pressure load though, and should be used with caution in any older Colt SAA.


Hastings, read this-

Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5

 

[dirtygrunt95]

I carry the buffalo bore's in my mtn gun and find them quite easy to shoot. But wouldn't mind trading it for a 41 mag.

 

[sonny]

This is from John Linebaugh. He has more experience with, and consequently knows more about .45 Colt guns than anybody else
in the world. A premier gun-builder.
You would do well to read his complete series of "Writings" at this web-site.

Linebaugh's Custom Sixguns - Heavyweight Bullets

The following is a portion of one of his writings:
I have shot hundreds of the 32,000 psi class loads listed at the beginning of this article in several Model 25-5's. Recoil is heavy due to the S&W "hump" on the grip, but I do not see these loads as being dangerous in this fine gun. I do consider 32,000 to be ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM for this gun and prefer to hold my personal loads to 5% under those listed loads for approximately 25,000 psi. I carry a S&W 4" in .45 Colt daily and shoot a 260 gr. Keith at 900 fps for general duty. When I saddle up and go into the hills I pack the same gun with a 310 gr. NEI Keith over 23 gr. H-110. This gives me about 1080 fps and all the punch I need for anything on our mountain. As with any gun and load data, work up carefully. I assume responsibility only for the ammo I myself assemble.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Sonny, that one goes hand in hand with the link I posted above. I love Linebaugh's site, and writings!

 

[hastings]

Thanks for the great info. This is exactly what I was looking for. I have a fellow who may be interested in trading his 45colt for my 41mag mountain gun. Based on the info you all have provided, if he is interested I am going to do the swap. By the way, I attached a picture of my 41. It's so nice looking, and nice shooting that I will have a hard time parting with it, but oh-well. It would just sit in a safe and collect dust. I'd rather see it go to someone who will shoot it regularly.

Thanks again.
Hastings

 

[David Sinko]

In a Mountain Gun I would choose the .45 ACP over the .45 Colt. You can still shoot 255 gr. bullets over 900 FPS and the ACP cartridge is far more versatile.

Dave Sinko

 

[colt_saa]

In a Mountain Gun I would choose the .45 ACP over the .45 Colt. You can still shoot 255 gr. bullets over 900 FPS and the ACP cartridge is far more versatile.

Dave Sinko

Dave,
Being a hand loader, I have never seen this ammunition offering. Can you please let the OP and the other non hand loading members of the Forum know where they can buy these 255 grain 45ACP cartridges that yeild 900+FPS.

 

[20nickels]

Dave,
Being a hand loader, I have never seen this ammunition offering. Can you please let the OP and the other non hand loading members of the Forum know where they can buy these 255 grain 45ACP cartridges that yeild 900+FPS.

I agree with Dave that there is little or nothing a 45 Colt can do in an N frame that an ACP cannot. I choose the versatility and availability of the ACP, but I'm not a traditionalist.
I believe Buffalo Bore is offering 45 Auto Rim now. As for handloading ACP in the 625 you can get to 1000fps under a 250 gr pill using Unique.

Personally I would keep the .41 though. You'll regret selling it.

 

[snakeman32]

I would like to have either one of them. I have been leaning towards the .41 mag. Now I just have to locate one without the stupid lock on it.


snakeman

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

The ACP is good, but you can do things in the .45 Colt mountain gun, that you can't do with a .45 ACP. Sorry, but that's a fact. Read the link that sonny posted above.

As for the .45 ACP/AR loads, here you go-



.45 Auto Rim +P Pistol and Handgun Ammo .45 Auto Rim +P Ammo - 255 gr. H.C. F.N. (1,000 fps/ M.E. 566 ft. lbs) - 20 Round Box
$34.38

Manufacturer: Buffalo Bore

 

[one eye joe]

EXCELLENT POST, Gun 4 Fun........one eye joe

 

[David Sinko]

Having owned S&W revolvers in both .45 ACP and .45 Colt, I am committed to never again owning another S&W .45 Colt. The chambers were cut way too sloppy and were very hard on the brass, even with light loads. Granted this was a 25-7 and not a Mountain Gun, but I still can not get the bad taste out of my mouth. A 255 gr. bullet pushing 1000 FPS will do 99% of what needs to be done with a large caliber revolver. My custom Bowen .45 Colt Redhawk sees very little use these days because the .45 ACP pretty much does it all for me. The .45 Colt is the clear choice for dangerous game, but the heavy ACP and Auto Rim loadings are no joke either. The old black powder .45 Colt loads were very effective against big game and today we can duplicate that performance with the ACP revolvers. If you MUST have a .45 Colt S&W revolver, the best way to do this would be to have a .357, .41 or .44 cylinder rechambered and matched with a .45 barrel. The purpose of this is NOT to run the loads hot, but to improve accuracy and case life with the tighter chambers and dimensionally perfect bore to cylinder throat relationship. I have a 629 Mountain Lion and a spare .45 barrel and am still considering such a conversion.

Dave Sinko

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

David-
I'm very suprised to hear that about your 25-7. It is the only time in reading in all of the forums I belong to, and from those whom I've known personally to hear that a 25-7 had sloppy chambers. Non of my Smith's have/had that trouble. My Redhawk did, big time! My 25-7 is as accurate as a gun can get without being linebored, and the brass is in excellent shape when ejected, even with warm loads.

 

[colt_saa]

Having owned S&W revolvers in both .45 ACP and .45 Colt, I am committed to never again owning another S&W .45 Colt. The chambers were cut way too sloppy and were very hard on the brass, even with light loads. Granted this was a 25-7 and not a Mountain Gun, but I still can not get the bad taste out of my mouth. A 255 gr. bullet pushing 1000 FPS will do 99% of what needs to be done with a large caliber revolver. My custom Bowen .45 Colt Redhawk sees very little use these days because the .45 ACP pretty much does it all for me. The .45 Colt is the clear choice for dangerous game, but the heavy ACP and Auto Rim loadings are no joke either. The old black powder .45 Colt loads were very effective against big game and today we can duplicate that performance with the ACP revolvers. If you MUST have a .45 Colt S&W revolver, the best way to do this would be to have a .357, .41 or .44 cylinder rechambered and matched with a .45 barrel. The purpose of this is NOT to run the loads hot, but to improve accuracy and case life with the tighter chambers and dimensionally perfect bore to cylinder throat relationship. I have a 629 Mountain Lion and a spare .45 barrel and am still considering such a conversion.

Dave Sinko

Dave,
Two little questions......Were you the first owner of the firearm or did you acquire it used?

Secondly, did you give S&W a chance to fix the problem? If so did they succeed or fail?

I would think that at the worst you would only need a new cylinder to solve your problem.

Of all my shooting buddies with 25-7s, 25-9s and 25-11s each of them is quite pleased with the performance of the revolver. The chambers and throats are greatly improved over the previous 25-3s and the bulk of the 25-5s.

 

[20nickels]

I believe the larger Colt chambers were pre-1982 or so, but don't quote me.

 

[epj]

Gee, I'd stick with the .41 mag, but then again, I handload. Years ago I stupidly traded my M57 in on a then-new 629. I don't have the 629 any more either, but if I could have one of them back it would be the 57.

 

[David Sinko]

I was not the original owner of the 25-7 but there was no wear on it at all and it appeared to be in unfired condition. I have also owned a stainless Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt. I never returned the revolver to S&W because the condition was not dangerous and I actually thought it to be normal. Even to this day I believe that .45 Colt revolvers are a tricky business and manufacturers are content to not give us tight chambers. The problem happens to be worst in .45 Colt because it's the chambering where you're left with the least amount of steel in the cylinder. That 25-7 was the first .45 Colt I ever owned and I had to throw away practically all of my Winchester brass because it would not fit into the cylinder of my Redhawk. Starline and PMC were better but eventually I traded this gun away. What's interesting about the .45 ACP revolvers is heavy bullets roll crimped in Auto Rim brass can also produce some ugly looking cases, while the same bullet and load taper crimped into ACP brass is fine. The .45 ACP has never caused me aggravation in any way.

Dave Sinko

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I believe the larger Colt chambers were pre-1982 or so, but don't quote me.

It wasn't the chambers on ealier Colts, it was the throats that were oversized.


David Sinko- Get a F/A 83, or 97. You won't have to worry about the chambers on those! They are awesome, and cut to minimum specs. My brass doesn't even feel like it has been used for a hot load when resizing, when fired in mine.

 

[Stainz]

Some 25s had the large exit bores in .45 Colt, that is a fact. I believe the accepted standard oversized chambers, so called 'black powder chambers', still persist in Ruger and S&W. At least, all of mine have them. Freedom Arms, and no doubt custom guns, have tighter chambers. Until recently, Ruger's exit bores were too small - and varied - easily remedied with a purpose-built reamer. Having owned a collection of Ruger .45 Colts - including a 5.5" RH and a .454 SRH, the latter being properly reamed upon arrival and the best new Ruger I ever bought, I bought such a reamer. They are all gone now, the insidious new 625MG in .45 Colt my wife shocked me with seven years ago, my first S&W (625-7 from '01), displacing them all. I eventually traded a 5.5" SS Bisley in .45 Colt for another older (625-6 from ~'96) MG, also .45 Colt.

My second S&W was a new 4" 625-8 (.45 ACP) in late 9/02. Within weeks I was reloading .45 Colt - then .45 ACP & AR. Coaxed by Taffin & Venturino articles re the .45 Colt/.45 ACP/AR, I put equivalent loads in .45 Colt and AR cases - and elected to keep the MG due to it's sentimental value and traditional looks. The second one became my 'shooter' - preserving the original one... I just love the MG-look - and would love one in .45 ACP. I had a 629MG - now I have a standard 4" 629, which I like better (Larger trigger & hammer, RR front/WO rear sight vs MG's black/black, etc). My greatest fault with my MGs is the laser etched barrel - should have been imprinted (Both are wearing off!).

Mine see .45 Schofield as well as the .45 Colt - ranging from bottom end loads under a 200gr LRNFP to 255gr LSWC and 250 gr Speer #4484 Gold Dots, my top loads under 900 fps (... and just over the 14kpsi SAAMI spec.). The wood grips are fine for the .45 Colt loads. Their grouping better at 25 yd than any Ruger with the same ammo rang the death knell for my Rugers. I miss the SRH - but not so much. I'd be devastated without my .45 Colt MGs. YMMV.

Stainz

 

[Jim Kuykendall]

I own two 45 MG's and both digest ACP and AR without hesitation. Looking for more. The ACP even fire without moon clips, still need to push the cases out with a pencil or pen. The 45 ACP model is one of the best in my opinion.

 

[surveyor47]

Dont underestimate the 41 Magnum. It can shoot as soft as a 45 or as hard as a 44 Magnum. The 41 truly is a handloaders cartridge. There isnt an iota of difference between the 44 Special and 41 Mag Police Load (210 lead SWC @ 950 fps). There is very little if any difference between a 41 Mag hunting load and a 44 Mag hunting load until you get into really heavy bullets, where the 44 shines. For most purposes, the 41 is enough gun. The primary difference is that the 41 shoots a little flatter, is easier on recoil, and 41 guns have a reputation for outlasting 44 guns, at least S&Ws. I believe that the 41 Magnum is the most accurate handgun round that I have ever fired, particularly at 100 yards. Even the 4" Mountain Gun can hit at 100 yards on a regular basis.

 

[hastings]

I took the 41mag MG out this past weekend and did some shooting at 75 and 100 yards. It was a little improvisational, so we shot at an old computer monitor, and at 100 yards it was easy to keep the shots centered on the small monitor screen. I was amazed at how accurate the mg is, and how flat the 41mag round shoots. We shot 38, 9mm, 357, 45acp, 45colt, and 500S&W at similar ranges, and none of these rounds were as accurate or seemed to have the flat trajectory of the 41.

I have purchased a blued 45colt MG, and it should be here next week. I had planned on getting rid of the 41, and still may (depending on how well I like the 45colt) but I have a new-found respect for both the cartridge and the revolver. Plus, it's so good looking in the blued steel with dark Aherns. Fortunately, so is the 45colt I have coming. Maybe I'll wear one on each hip, just for balance, mind you. I don't want to develop a limp.

 

[David LaPell]

Before you get rid of the .41 Magnum, and if you are into handloading, I would look into John Taffin's work on the .41 Special. This is done by trimming the brass down to .44 Special length. With the right 210 grain bullets and powder, it has a velocity of about 900 fps. I tried these and the recoil is about that of a .357 Magnum. That and my handloads of 210 grain cast bullets and 8.1 grains of Unique made shooting my .41 Magnums very pleasant. I had a .45 Colt MG, and even though I shot it alot, I could never get used to the round butt grips. I like my 624 much better.

 

[AKAOV1MAN]

For really heavy .45 Colt loads I use my 4" Ruger Redhawk (also got one in 7.5 inches), or my pair of Ruger Blackhawk Bisleys. They will take almost amything you can stuff into them-within reason. The N frames are just not as rugged for as long a time. I trust the N frames to fire any load that I will need to stop almost anything in the hemisphere, I think they are marginal for big bears, but doable. In .45 Colt I prefer a 260-300 grain solid slug, really hard cast with gas check or jacketed. For self defense aginst anything or anyone, I feel that shot placement and penetration are the most essential elements. After all the .45 ACP FMJ was putting folks down pretty good for 60 odd years before someone discovered that you needed a JHP to do that job. Putting a 45 caliber hole in someone at 1200 FPS is going to do a lot of damage, if it hits pretty much any bone it is going to produce a stopped person, that solid slug is going to produce a lot of secondary bone fragments as force multipliers.
I have taken to the theory that the pelvic bone is the target of preference in humans, a solid hit there will stop anyone.

 

[hastings]

I picked up the 45colt MG, today, and put a couple dozen rounds thru it (Ultramax cowboy and Blazer Jacketed Hollowpoint stuff). It is without a doubt my favorite revolver. It is more accurate than my 41mag mg at 25 yards, and the recoil is significantly less, so followup shots are faster and less affected by flinching. The two mg's are identical in appearance, both blued, both with dark Ahern grips (so the round butt isn't an issue). The 45colt feels lighter (no doubt due to the larger holes/less steel in the cylinder and barrel. I must confess I have never shot a 44special, but I can't imagine a nicer cartridge/handgun combination (at least for my tastes). I'm going to sell the 41mag mg and buy reloading equipment to feed my 45colts. If I want magnum power, I'll just switch to my 45colt Ruger Bisley Blackhawk convertible.

 

[617fan]

I have to agree with you on the .45 Colt MG. I agonized over caliber choices before I bought mine, but as soon as I shot it, I knew I had a winner. There may be better choices for individual tasks, but I think .45 Colt is the ideal cartridge for the MG platform.