My 19-3 is leaded up bad...help!

[bigmoose]

I brought my two sons shooting today and they did great. They each filled playing cards with six holes at ten yards, and also made soda cans dance around. They loved the Combat Magnum. We had a blast...that's what it's all about. The ammo was my handloaded .38 special dewc in front of 3.4 grs of tightgroup. Then, after 50 shots of this, we fired 18 shots of .357 magnum. They were Western Super X 158 gr lubaloy. The box also said nickel plated case, inside lubricated. The bullets have a copper color to them but do look jacketed. This box of shells was from 1968.

I got home and sat down to clean it and that is when I saw lead sprayed around the rim of the muzzle and the bore hopelessly fouled.

The reloads have never fouled my bore before, so I suspect it was the .357 factory loads.

2 questions...

1. Are these old factory rounds known to cause this?
2. What is a good way to clean the bore without harming the gun?
Thanks,
bigmoose

 

[Engine49guy]

I used to have the same problem years ago until a friend suggested shooting some jacketed rounds at the end of the shooting session.
The jackets seem to "Get the lead out".

 

[Iggy]

That's one way of crackin' the forcing cone on a Mdl 19.

See if you can find a Lewis Lead Puller. It ain't quite as violent.

 

[Engine49guy]

Iggy, are you saying that shooting non jacketed bullets followed by jacketed bullets can crack the forcing cone?
I have not heard this before and need clarification.

 

[mike from st pete]

I'm Not Iggy

Iggy, are you saying that shooting non jacketed bullets followed by jacketed bullets can crack the forcing cone?
I have not heard this before and need clarification.

If the barrel and forcing cone are as fouled as the OP thinks, then the bore diameter is reduced. As we know jacketed bullets need more of a push, more powder to drive them thru a barrel. Lead being softer and lubed goes out with less powder.
The forcing cone on K frames has a relief cut for the shaft of the cylinder, a weak spot. Too much resistance can have the effect of raising pressure. I would not use a 357MAG round to clean a lead fouled bore.
Soak in Kroil or other good penetrating oil and brush with a bronze/brass bore brush after a couple of hour soak. If that doesn't do the trick the Lewis Lead Remover will.

 

[Iggy]

If the barrel and forcing cone are as fouled as the OP thinks, then the bore diameter is reduced. As we know jacketed bullets need more of a push, more powder to drive them thru a barrel. Lead being softer and lubed goes out with less powder.
The forcing cone on K frames has a relief cut for the shaft of the cylinder, a weak spot. Too much resistance can have the effect of raising pressure. I would not use a 357MAG round to clean a lead fouled bore.
Soak in Kroil or other good penetrating oil and brush with a bronze/brass bore brush after a couple of hour soak. If that doesn't do the trick the Lewis Lead Remover will.

Whut he said!!.

 

[BigBill]

If its lead fouling your powder charge maybe too high for leadcast bullets. I used plain leadcast bullets before and had very little leading but i shot the jacketed bullets during the shoot and after so the lead wouldn't be that bad. But i don't like doing that either. But then i switched to the moly coated leadcast and the leading stopped completely. Since i can't find the lead cast moly coated bullets anymore i'm coating the plain lead cast bullets with the spray moly now. I hope there just as good.

 

[What the]

What they said if it's lead fouling^^^^. That being said are you sure it's lead? If it's as bad as you say, I find that excessive for only 18 rounds. The fouling may just be the remnants of the lubaloy, in which case your regular cleaning routine should do the job.

 

[Engine49guy]

Thank you for the clarification,
Put that way makes absolute sense ,
As no pictures were posted I had not considered the situation to be that EXTREME .
Not to detract from the OP but may I ask if it is OK to use jacketed rounds to clear the typical slight lead fouling from firing a box or two of non jacketed lead bullets or should firing jacketed rounds at the end of a shooting session always be avoided ?

 

[cjw3]

Thank you for the clarification,
Put that way makes absolute sense ,
As no pictures were posted I had not considered the situation to be that EXTREME .
Not to detract from the OP but may I ask if it is OK to use jacketed rounds to clear the typical slight lead fouling from firing a box or two of non jacketed lead bullets or should firing jacketed rounds at the end of a shooting session always be avoided ?

In the situation you describe, some say it is OK; some say not, it will "iron" the lead into the barrel. I've done it before and it didn't seem to do any harm.

I don't do it any more, but avoid having to by running a copper brush wrapped in bronze wool through the bore occasionally while shooting. That, and working with bullet diameter, lube, velocity, etc. to minimize leading to begin with.

Not much of an answer, I guess.

 

[bigmoose]

Thanks for the reply guys. I did a little research on these old lubaloy bullets and they did have a reputation of fouling the bore something terrible. My camera won't take clear close-ups so no pics. But the bore is definitely coated with a thin film of lead from cone to muzzle.
I won't fire jacketed rounds to clean it. I will try the penetrating oil soak and copper brush. What about those lead removing cloths? Anybody have any luck with those?
I forgot to mention...those .357 rounds were hefty. One of my kids said he felt like he got tennis elbow after shooting a few rounds. They loaded 'em hot back in the day.

 

[Iggy]

That Lewis Lead Remover will blow your mind with what it will pull out of a lead fouled gun.

Strips of lead coming out of the rifling are pretty impressive and disconcerting at the same time.

It will sure make you think about cramming a hot copper jacketed bullet down the barrel.

 

[pharmer]

Remington also loaded a semi wadcutter 158 gr lead load a long time ago. At 1200 fps the leading seemed welded to the bore. Joe

 

[chief38]

YUP - The Lewis Lead Remover is the way to go. A very good tool to have in the Gun box.

Chief38

 

[ddixie884]

It is definitly the old lead .357s that caused the problem. 18 rnds is what I fired in a ruger in the 70s and it did a really bad job of leading. I traded the rest off and haven't fired any since. That is the load Skeeter said made him go to the 358156 gas check bullet.

 

[Steve C]

The old .357 MAG ammo with lead bullets was known for its bad leading. A barrel that is not completely clean wiil lead up quickly as lead accumulates on existing fouling easily.

A quick and relatively easy way to remove leading is with a mixture of 50/50 hydrogen peroxide and white vinegar. Plug one end of the barrel, I use a vacuum line plug that you can get from AutoZone but a soft ear plug will work also. Block the pistol up and pour in the mix. The solution will begin to bubble which shows it is attacking the lead. Do not allow the solution to remain in the barrel after it has quit bubbling since it will begin to attack the steel after he has reacted with all the lead, this should take about 10 to 15 minutes. There will be a scum form at the top of the solution which is chemically altered led. Pour the solution out and treat it like the toxic compound it is. Repeat if necessary.

Rinse well with clear water and dry. Clean with bore solvent and patches to remove the remaining carbon fouling.

 

[bigmoose]

Beware of this ammo

Here is a shot of the Western ammo from the 1960's. Stay away from it, it leads up the bore quick. My boys shot the playing cards with the 148 gr dewc and 3.4 gr of Titegroup. Note the 2 of diamonds has one ragged hole of three shots. This was the first time they ever shot this gun (19-3 Combat Magnum with 4" barrel).

I used mike of st pete's suggestion of penetrating oil and a copper brush. It cleaned up the bore nicely, and from now on I'm sticking with .38 special loads.

Thanks to all for your help.

 

[OFT II]

That old Winchester/Western Lubaloy loads used to be called "Lead-a-lots". They would shoot great but after a few rounds you couldn't see the grooves in the barrel.

 

[OKFC05]

it is OK to use jacketed rounds to clear the typical slight lead fouling

For slight lead fouling, the jacketed bullet removes much of the lead you can see just looking casually, but it makes it harder to remove the rest of the lead. (Shooting a jacked bullet into heavy lead fouling is dangerous and should not be attempted.)

Microscopic examination reveals a thin layer of lead burnished to the barrel that is difficult to remove. Continually shooting lead into copper fouling and copper jackets into lead fouling actually produces a series of thin layers that can look clean but dull, eventually affecting accuracy.

According to one of the top custom barrel makers, half the "shot out" barrels he replaces can be cured by removing ALL the lead and copper fouling from the barrel. If you think your barrel is clean, hook up a "foul out" system and look at the results.

 

[mike from st pete]

I handload 158LSWC so they stay below 900FPS from my 2.5 and 3 inch barreled revolvers. Not too hard to do in 38SPL but 357MAG is a worry for double charges. I watch very closely while charging and bullet seating.
I use a local caster's product.