My epiphany on CCW guns

[Old cop]

I tried the Ruger LCP and all the clones and found that sooner or later they all malfunction. Correcting that malfunction on such a small gun is difficult for me (big hands). I've stayed w/the J frame platform for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that I know the .38 FBI load works from past experience & the revolver is much less likely to have a problem. I'm no longer an LEO so I don't carry much beyond the gun and a single speed strip. If that's not enough I'm probably somewhere where I shouldn't be.

 

[vito]

This subject never seems to go away for long, and will never likely be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. No matter how many rounds you carry, someone can always come up with a scenario where you would need more rounds.

The recent viral YouTube video of a mob of thugs attacking some Kroger store employees (and someone yelling "we got a white one") immediately made me think of how I would react if similarly attacked. A two shot Derringer might stop the attack, if you shot one of the thugs and the rest went running. Or a 15 round semi-auto might not be enough if all of the thugs come at you after you draw your gun (you will not likely hit and disable with every round fired).

Personally I know that I will not consistently carry a large heavy gun, despite the comfort level it provides in terms of stopping power and round capacity. I only carry what I can do with relative physical comfort and convenience, especially recognizing that it is most likely that I will never actually need my gun even if I carry 24/7 for the rest of my life.

So right now I find that my most frequently carried gun is my 642, with no speed loaders or ammo strips, limiting me to a total of 5 rounds of 38+p ammo, or my new Ruger LC9s with 8 rounds of 9mm. I would be better prepared with my trusty Model 19 with 6 rounds of 357mag plus a 45acp semi auto with another 9 or 10 rounds, but I know I will not actually carry that way.

 

[sipowicz]

Thanks for all the replies...I still carry an auto now and then, but my P2000 is compact enough to fit in an IWB under a t-shirt so I guess I'll stick with that....for now. And maybe that is why the Shield feels so skinny in my hand...still, it shoot very well for a small auto..and the trigger on the one I shot was better than on my M&P. Hmmm...maybe next year....

 

[Arik]

If that's not enough I'm probably somewhere where I shouldn't be.

I never look at it that way. Although i get where youre coming from, that kind of logic isn't good. Unless you have alzheimers and just wonder about in bad areas walking into shady bars you are exactly where you should be. I know I am. I'm at work, this is where I should be, or at a store or at a doctors office. If there is trouble it came to me not the other way around. And i should be as prepared as possible for it.

Getting back to the tiny guns. I'm not a huge fan of them either. To me it depends on the overall size and thickness of the gun. Some, like the Kahr CM/PM9 or the bodyguard are just too small to effectively grab and shoot. To me it's like trying to pull a toothpick out of a golf bag. Even the Kahr P9 is a bit too small. I would at least need to add some thickness to the grip. The controls don't bother me much. As a lefty I slingshot the slide and the thickness of the specific grip would dictate how easy it is to release the mag. Like someone else said, I use a small gun, m36, when I absolutely have no choice but even that I'm thinking of replacing with some sort of a auto. Maybe a Kahr P45 or a cw45

 

[federali]

Lycan Has it

Yes, The officer in question, Sgt. Tim Sullivan as I recall, committed a gross tactical error. He hadn't anticipated or noticed back-up gunmen until he committed himself to action.

If robbers are content to take the money and run, then let them. The problem arises when they decide not to leave witnesses. For the victim, this is a coin-toss that decides whether you live or die.

The Model 36 or 37 is a great gun and I own and use a Model 37 on occasion. But, most of our local convenience stores, even the local wine shop, are robberies waiting to happen as the shopkeepers have not followed free advice available from the police and have done nothing to discourage an armed robbery.

 

[aphelion]

I had an epiphany myself awhile back. I mentioned on another thread recently about a time when I was shooting at a full-sized pig silhouette with a Chief's Special using 125 gr +P ammo and failed to knock it down. A couple of people had fun with that, but it illustrated to me that a 38 snubby just doesn't hit very hard. Have any of you ever had to put out a fire with a small inadequate fire extinguisher? I have, a couple of times. Pretty frustrating when the darn thing runs out just when you get started and the fire is still going and growing. Not a good feeling and a good analogy for a typical self defense scenario. So I chose a Glock 23. I was like a lot of people with an anti-Glock bias for a long time. Until I tried one and realized I was being silly. Obviously not the only choice, but a good one I think. You don't have to worry about miniture controls on that one.

 

[feralmerril]

For me there is three levels of carry. If I am just running around with my wife shopping/eating/doctoring I take a old model 40 smith. On longer jaunts we have a old model 36 with a 3" pencil barrel. I own 8 various .38`s and .357`s. At some point it finaly sunk into me that the little model 36 was light to pack, shot the same ammo as I mostly use EVEN IN my .357`s, had the same barrel length as my model 63-3, even a half inch longer than my python snub and weighs about half what they do. Third level is my .44`s and .45`s that usually stay home nowdays. When they get carried its in the boonies. Guess I will have to take my chances on a swarm of a half dozen thrill seekers wanting to count coup on me.

 

[hardknocks]

undergunned

Hi all
I have often read on the forums folks say (I don't feel undergunned) when I carry X Y or Z.
Seems like feeling undergunned and actually being undergunned are two different situations.
I guess one will not know until it's too late!
I may or may not be myself when in public but I'm pretty confident at home!
Just saying
Regards
Mike

 

[feralmerril]

If we get nuked anything less than another nuke in your pocket is being undergunned. Guess we just gamble with the odd`s and stats. To me at my age, all of this is just interesting to think about. I have been in some touch and go situations many years ago but truth is I pretty much put myself in them. Off the top of my head I cant really recall ever having been attacked without cause since high school.

 

[george minze]

I went to LGS to visit with a LC9S. Sure is handy, light trigger, safety as probably most striker fired pistols..Giving it some thought..My Shield is just a little big for a pocket pistol ..However it is reliable....The real question is if I bought a smaller pistol like the LC9s would I carry it any more than I do my shield or PPKs...I honestly don't know over many, many years I have tried almost every thing including that small diamondback.... I want something that is concealable and functions..period..I would rather have my BHP with me if I really need it..I'm practical enough to realize it is a little to big for summer wear.I'm 5'9'' and 150 lbs soaking wet. Overshirts I guess is the only practical answer, however when I see somebody with one on I think...he is carrying... I love P7's but they are pardon the....butt heavy for inside the waist wear..For me anyway.....You would think at my age I would have figured it out by now.....NOT

 

[Protected One]

I went to LGS to visit with a LC9S. Sure is handy, light trigger, safety as probably most striker fired pistols..Giving it some thought..My Shield is just a little big for a pocket pistol ..However it is reliable....The real question is if I bought a smaller pistol like the LC9s would I carry it any more than I do my shield or PPKs...I honestly don't know over many, many years I have tried almost every thing including that small diamondback.... I want something that is concealable and functions..period..I would rather have my BHP with me if I really need it..I'm practical enough to realize it is a little to big for summer wear.I'm 5'9'' and 150 lbs soaking wet. Overshirts I guess is the only practical answer, however when I see somebody with one on I think...he is carrying... I love P7's but they are pardon the....butt heavy for inside the waist wear..For me anyway.....You would think at my age I would have figured it out by now.....NOT

S&W Bodyguard 380 in pocket holster solves the problem.

 

[Waywatcher]

Well, let's be realistic:

-The chances of ever needing a CCW are incredibly slim.
-The fraction of a chance which needed a CCW, and a J frame wouldn't suffice--smaller yet.
-The fraction of a fraction of a chance in which a J frame was insufficient and the likelihood that the outcome would be different based on equipment--negligible.

The chances that you will die of heart disease, cancer, or a car crash? Now that's something to worry about.

 

[feralmerril]

Well put!!
Add on: How about a backup, extra mags and or speed loaders plus a blade to gut em with if swarmed?

 

[gwpercle]

Most discussions regarding CCW guns revolve around gun size and concealability. I have a different criteria: If you walked into a convenience store and were suddenly in the midst of a shooting incident against three armed adversaries, does the gun you're carrying have sufficient offensive capability and accuracy to engage one or more armed adversaries at distances that could stretch the length of the store and could you hit all three adversaries without a reload?

A retired NYC LEO paid with his life when caught in such a situation on Lower Broadway in Manhattan, at a Radio Shack. He was armed with a Model 36, no reload, engaged what he thought were two adversaries which turned out to be four adversaries, fired five times and missed and was then gunned down.

My minimum carry gun is a Kahr P9 but I most often carry a Glock 19 or a Browning HP, both of which have the offensive capability I feel I'll need should I have no choice but to shoot my way out of a bad situation.

It doesn't matter if you miss 5 times or 15 times. Only hits count, misses get you ...killed.

 

[shouldazagged]

Well, let's be realistic:

-The chances of ever needing a CCW are incredibly slim.
-The fraction of a chance which needed a CCW, and a J frame wouldn't suffice--smaller yet.
-The fraction of a fraction of a chance in which a J frame was insufficient and the likelihood that the outcome would be different based on equipment--negligible.

The chances that you will die of heart disease, cancer, or a car crash? Now that's something to worry about.

I'm a percentage player, like Waywatcher seems to be. I carry a J-frame .38 Special, sometimes but not always with a speed strip reload. Realism? Fatalism? I don't know, but it suits my very quiet, retired-old-man life.

 

[Lycan]

I'm sorry.... Well, maybe I'm not

But every time this type of discussion comes up it reminds me of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhe58xORWG0

 

[aphelion]

That's what I'm talkin bout!

 

[ironhead7544]

It might just by my training, but I like to be able to make center hits at 50 yards. The smallest pistol I can do that with is a G26. I added a +2 mag bottom for 13 shots of CorBon 115 gr that goes 1260 fps as chronoed by me.

The G26 is squat and ugly, but no one is supposed to see it anyway. It doesnt jam or rust and will run dry if necessary. I can see the sights with my 65 yr old eyes. The only thing I might trade it off for is a G19.

JMHO. The G26 is the best compromise for me.

Also, carry a reload. Stuff happens. Take my word for it, a magazine can go bad on you.

 

[hangnoose]

A POOR EXAMPLE IMO

4 against 1 are not good odds regardless of what you are carrying. If the first 5 shots all missed, I doubt the outcome would have been different with another gun. Bottom line is you need to be proficient (& lucky) with what you carry. A radio shack? Not exactly a big score like a bank/ jewelry store etc.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Over the years I have seen what a lot of people do and heard a lot about why they think their ways are the best.

I've worked with cops carrying revolvers with cylinders loaded with different combinations of ammunition (2 .38Spl. JHP's, 2 .357 JHP's, 2 .357 AP's, or some other combination), anticipating a combat situation unfolding in certain ways. A Ouija board may have been used to determine that.

I've known cops who carried 2" Chief Specials while working plainclothes assignments, but went to their range qualifications with 6" K-38's or Colt Pythons.

I've known LOTS of cops who never fired anything but .38Spl target loads for training or qualifications, but went out on the street every day loaded up with .357 SuperVel 110-grain JHP's (WAY DIFFERENT point of impact in relation to point of aim).

As a supervisor, and later as a chief, I've inspected cops guns and gear and commented on the age and experience of the lint and spider webs, not to mention the accumulated crud and gunk that can result from NEVER having received a proper cleaning, and way too much oil slopped into the works.

I've known lots of guys (cops & civilians) who change guns and carry gear the way other people change socks and underwear. I've heard lots of talk about "carry rotation".

I've heard just about every possible argument in favor of, or strongly against, each caliber or bullet type and every conceivable handgun (revolver, semi-auto), etc, etc, etc.

Personally, if I really believed that I would be involved in armed combat on a particular day I wouldn't leave the house without a shotgun, rifle, sidearm, back-up gun, all the ammo I could carry, and two or three armed friends.

I carry the same sidearm every day, in the same holster, on the same belt, at the same position, loaded with the same ammunition. I shoot about once per month with the same handgun, using up the ammunition I've been carrying and replacing it with new ammo of the same type. I clean the pistol thoroughly after firing, lubricate it sparingly, and wipe it down every day when I take it out of the holster for the night.

At home I keep a loaded 12-ga. Remington 870, just like those I've been using for over 40 years. On road trips I usually put a loaded M1 Carbine behind the seat of my truck, or in the trunk of the car, another piece that I have over 40 years of experience with.

I have other firearms, and I enjoy them all. I hunt small game with a .22 revolver, .38Spl revolver, and an original antique percussion rifle of about 1860 vintage. I hunt larger game with .357 revolver, .44 magnum revolver, and centerfire rifles from .25 to .45 caliber (some over 100 years old that require me to cast bullets and load my own ammo because it just hasn't been made during my lifetime).

But for personal defense I use the same equipment every day and train with the same equipment every time. If the worst case scenario develops I don't want to have to stop and think about which gun I'm carrying, where am I carrying it, is there a safety to disengage or not, which ammunition it is loaded with, what is the POI compared to the POA, or any of the other complications that might cause me to lose a fraction of a second in response to the threat.

But that's just me. Recreational shooting is one thing. Self defense is something else. Lots of other people have different opinions about what is best for them.