My First 9mm Reloads

[Mals9]

I shot my first reloads today. I loaded Berry's plated 115 gr so I started low at 3.5gr of W231. About 80 % stove piped and the accuracy was poor. I stepped up to 3.7 gr and most all ejected but I had a lot of short stroking, not loading the next round. The cases came out with heavy soot on one side. This did not happen with the Winchester white box that shot very accurately. What is the cause of the large amount of soot? I am new to pistol reloading so I am here to be schooled.

Mals

 

[427mach1]

Don't have my loading manual in front of me but soot can be a sign of too low of pressure. The pressure is not high enough to expand the brass to the point that it seals against the firing chamber. This all assumes the firing chamber is within spec, too. If your loads are toward the low end, try increasing the charge.

Edit: I just checked my Hornady manual and it shows 4.1 - 4.7 grains for the 115 grain bullet. I know plated bullets should not be loaded hot but I would not go below minimum.

 

[Mals9]

That makes sense. I was instructed to use a starting load mid way between the top of lead and bottom of fmj bullets. I will bump up to 4.0gr and see how it performs.
Thanks

 

[Hillbilly77]

I was instructed to use a starting load mid way between the top of lead and bottom of fmj bullets. I will bump up to 4.0gr and see how it performs.

Hodgdon website says:
115gr. bullet - Win 231 powder - 4.7gr. - 5.1gr. for GDHP with COL - 1.125" and 4.3gr. - 4.8gr. for LRN with COL 1.100".

People say to load plated bullets to the same specs as lead. The "top of lead and bottom of FMJ" overlap in this case.

I'd go a little higher than 4.0gr. for your loads.
I would try at least the 4.3gr. listed as the minimum charge.

 

[Mike0251]

Hi, I load quite a bit of 9mm. Most important is referencing and understanding load data. You should not just say I'll bump it up and try that. I use VihtaVouri N340 for my loads but I did take the time to reference your load with 231. Here is what I found:

Winchester load data: 115g FMJ 4.3 start, 4.8 max. 1.169 OAL.
NOTE: you are using a plated bullet, not a full metal jacket as listed in that data. Makes a difference in pressure/seal of bullet to barrel.

Modern reloading by R. Lee, no 231 load data for 115 plated. They do list 231 for 115 lead bullet. 4.3 start, 4.8 max. 1.100 OAL.

Note the similarities in the charge data above? This is good. We can confirm with some confidence that 4.3 is your minimum starting load. No less!
Next we have to settle on the OAL. They are different above by a 1/16". That is a lot. So I referenced another manual, Western powders. There I find their powders but I find a 115g plated RN 115 bullet just like what you are using. And all the different powders indicate a OAL of 1.130".

So, what I myself would do if I was using 231 would be 4.3g and a 1.13 OAL. Use this information at your own risk. I would also chrono that load when I could as well.
In closing, always reference as much data as you can when developing a new load. Never ever guess or dream something up. 3.5 grains was a mistake hence your problems.

My load of choice is 5.1g N340, 1.150 OAL Xtreme 115g plated, CCI 500 primer, .374 diameter crimp, blazer brass, 1093 FPS, dead accurate. Clean, no issues.

I hoped I helped you.

 

[DumpStick]

Wait a minute. The only danger you run in using less than a starting load, is either the gun won't cycle, or the bullet sticks in the barrel.

We already know the bullet is exiting the barrel. That leaves the cycling.

All you need is enough powder to cycle the slide, and get 100% ejection. Just continue inching up in powder charge, until the slide cycles and the brass ejects. It doesn't need to be thrown 20 feet - I reload my 9's to pile the brass 2-3 feet to my right. Sometimes less than 900fps.

Excellent accuracy, easy shooting, and no crawling around chasing brass.

 

[Mike0251]

He is guessing and not basing to published load data. One squib with a quick follow up shot is a danger. I based that 4.3 on fact not fiction.

 

[Twoboxer]

The issues with your reloads are being caused by far too little powder.

I've shot >5,000 Berry's 115gr PRNs using 4.5gr of HP38/W231 (they are the same powder) at an OAL of 1.1" (which is short) and the MV out of a CZ75B with 4.6" barrel is just over 1100fps. I now use 4.7gr at the same OAL because my latest batch of HP38 tested to need more powder for similar performance to the last batch, and 4.7gr was more consistent on paper.

IIRC, my pistols began to cycle what seemed to be "reliably" only at 4.1gr.

 

[Mals9]

I am not guessing at my data. Lyman 49 has a starting load for a 115 gr Jacketed HP at 3.5 gr and a max of 4.9 gr. The lead bullet starts at 3.0 gr and max is 4.1. I looked at 4 loading manuals and I took the more conservative route. My bumping it up a bit is working up the load at 0.2 gr at a time. I have done this in 30-06 to find the best load. I prefer to increase the load in small increments instead of large amounts. What I did not expect was the lack of gas seal causing the soot. Thanks to all for the information and advice.

Mals

 

[hdwhit]

Mals9 wrote:
My bumping it up a bit is working up the load at 0.2 gr at a time.

Pistol cartridges are a little more sensitive to increases in powder charge than rifles which have greater case capacity, so many shooters increase charges in 0.1 grain increments.

Still, your approach of starting low and incrementally increasing the charge is sound and is the approach most manuals recommend.

Based on my experience, you'll start getting reliable functioning around 4.1 to 4.3 grains.

Welcome to the reloading forum.

 

[hdwhit]

Mals9 wrote:
I am not guessing at my data.

I know. You laid out the process you were following in your original post. The fact someone decided to characterize it as "guessing" is common on this forum. You just have to decide to get used to it.

 

[Nevada Ed]

First off the amount of power used in a case means nothing..........
until you match it with a OAL.

A starting load of w231 at 3.5grs in a OAL of 1.10" or 1.169"
will have too different fps readings and results on how the pistol preforms.

The 4.9grs is the maximum loading for the "Ball" type plated RN bullet design
that allows for a safe pressure in todays pistols.

I have shoot the 115gr plated RN at the OAL of 1.10" and even
out to 1.14" for my light target loads in standard and Milt. brass.
My loads are from 4.0 where the soot on the case stops and my
pistols cycle without any problems, with the 1.10" OAL......
up to the 4.9grs mentioned but this is still a medium loading in
some manuals.

I had no problems pressure wise with 4.9grs of w231 at 1.10" OAL
however my pistol did not do well in the accuracy groups with this loading........
1.12" was better for the RN design in my C9 pistol.

1.12" worked at getting close to factory loadings, if you wany high fps,
but my pistol gives me my best accuracy with a OAL of 1.14"
with the 115gr plated from 963fps up to 1040fps.

Good shooting.

 

[Wise_A]

I shot my first reloads today. I loaded Berry's plated 115 gr so I started low at 3.5gr of W231. About 80 % stove piped and the accuracy was poor. I stepped up to 3.7 gr and most all ejected but I had a lot of short stroking, not loading the next round. The cases came out with heavy soot on one side. This did not happen with the Winchester white box that shot very accurately. What is the cause of the large amount of soot? I am new to pistol reloading so I am here to be schooled.

Mals

Your charge is quite low.

Plated bullets use midrange jacketed data. A starting load for WW-231 in a 115-gr plated 9mm would be up above 4 grains. My manuals are in the basement and I don't like the online data for figuring plated loads.

When I (just recently) started loading 9mm, I flipped open Lyman's 50th and went right down the middle of my chosen powders (Unique and Universal). Both loads matched factory 124-grain ammo perfectly.

 

[Mike0251]

Just stopped by in this forum to help, not start anything except for a safe starting load for someone asking for help. I already knew it could be a bit contentious at times but went ahead anyway. All load data out there for 231 and a 115g RN bullet has the start listed at 4.3 and is easily found, and there is a lot of it. The author in his last post quotes Lyman at 3.5 for a JHP bullet and that is correct. But he is not loading a JHP, it is a RN which has a much different length of bullet. I have no idea why one would choose that data for a 115 RN and to do so is guessing to some degree. I'll leave you with the data from the Lee sheet and Winchester, and I hope we've been helpful.
My postings were not done to put you down in any way but only to shed light that the correct data is out there and or how to ascertain such in order that you become a successful and happy reloader with positive results the moment you pull that trigger. God bless and be safe.

 

[Wise_A]

The author in his last post quotes Lyman at 3.5 for a JHP bullet and that is correct. But he is not loading a JHP, it is a RN which has a much different length of bullet. I have no idea why one would choose that data for a 115 RN and to do so is guessing to some degree.

It actually doesn't matter so much.

If I had load data for a 124-grain jacketed HP, and I was loading a 124-grain jacketed RN, then I could easily use the data. Simply seat the 124-grain RN to the nominal length for that bullet, and then use the HP data. I load most things long anyway, and 9mm especially. It's very easy to set.

Is it extrapolating to a degree? Sure. But it's not reckless.

Anyways, Lyman's 50th data lists a minimum of 3.5 grains and a max of 5.0. Going by the "midrange jacketed" rule of thumb for plated, I probably would have started somewhere around 4.2 or 4.3.

 

[rwsmith]

If you don't have enough pressure......

...the case doesn't expand enough to seal against the chamber walls and you get leakage along the chamber walls toward the back of the case leaving burn marks on the sides of the case. The solution is usually to step up the load a little. I sometimes make bunny poot loads for revolvers, but a semi has to operate within a range of parameters to operate well.

I have a 9mm carbine and tried the loads that work fine in my semi pistols, but I got a lot of stovepipes. I upped the load a little and now the are as reliable as can be.

 

[JohnRoc65]

I've worked up loads of Plated 115gr RN with 4.5 to 4.8 grs of W231 with excellent results. I follow the proper load data and keep the C.O.L. from 1.100 to 1.135.

 

[Bkreutz]

One other thing to consider when using plated bullets is that there is a difference between plated bullets. Some are single plated, some are double plated, and there are a few triple plated. Then there's the thickness of the plating. Read the description on the bullet makers website. The mid range loading advice (or the 1200 fps speed limit) is usually referring to the single plated variety of plated bullets. The double plated bullets can be loaded like jacketed bullets. The triple plated ones are for those of us who load to major power factor (no published data, I load 9mm 124gr bullets to 1400 fps and 115's to 1500 fps). So depending on what you want out of the bullets should guide you in which bullets to buy. If I use single plated bullets in my major loads, the plating comes off and the bullet goes through the target sideways (keyhole) some double plated do this as well. Sorry to add one more layer of confusion to this discussion but I thought it was pertinent.

 

[NJM15]

I use 4.5 gr

I shot my first reloads today. I loaded Berry's plated 115 gr so I started low at 3.5gr of W231. About 80 % stove piped and the accuracy was poor. I stepped up to 3.7 gr and most all ejected but I had a lot of short stroking, not loading the next round. The cases came out with heavy soot on one side. This did not happen with the Winchester white box that shot very accurately. What is the cause of the large amount of soot? I am new to pistol reloading so I am here to be schooled.

Mals

I use 4.5 gr power pistol with good results, I would try using a factory crimp die to keep the pressure up and prevent the soot I use a lee prog press my cases come out clean

 

[mpshld9]

Your powder charges are TOO LOW! I don't use 231 anymore, Bullseye is MUCH BETTER powder. They are roughly the same burn rate, you should be in the 4.0-4.5 range for 115gr/9mm.