My rundown of the Miami Shootout....
- Thread starter rwsmith
- Start date
Truth right here!
Rifles should have been in every police vehicle since they made the transition from horses. The little M-1 carbine is not a bad LE weapon and we made over seven million of them, so they could have been issued to every patrol car in America. But instead we give them away to foreign countries or have them destroyed.
MOONDAWG
US Veteran
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face"
Mike Tyson
Mike TysonNot at my agency,...... we had a dopey, liberal Chief that put our shotguns in the trunk and painted our radio cars a more " earthy " tone cause some shrink said it wouldn't " provoke and offend ", folks as our old marked units did. It took two of our men in a raging gunfight with three armed robbers, one of which was using an Uzi, yep, real, who nearly outgunned and killed these men. We FINALLY got our shotguns back up front because you see, they couldn't access theirs under that murderous fire.
The folks at the top of the food chain, and the accountants/property custodians, lose touch with the realities of the field.
35Rem
Member
I know Texas Rangers understood the usefulness of rifles a long time ago. They were quite fond of the 1895 winchesters. High powered rifles
X Ring Ranch
Member
As of Police Firearms Instructor since 1968 and State Certified my observations were:
(1) I was surprised more LEO/FBI didn't wind up DRT (Dead Right There)
(2) The bad guys were better armed and knew it and were aggressive
(3) The good guys weren't and went into a defense posture
(4) Most yearly LEO/FBI qualifications at the range doesn't mean you are prepared for a gunfight where the target is shooting back
(5) Of the 100% who qualify, 20% LEO/FBI are truly qualified and the other 95% think they are.
(1) I was surprised more LEO/FBI didn't wind up DRT (Dead Right There)
(2) The bad guys were better armed and knew it and were aggressive
(3) The good guys weren't and went into a defense posture
(4) Most yearly LEO/FBI qualifications at the range doesn't mean you are prepared for a gunfight where the target is shooting back
(5) Of the 100% who qualify, 20% LEO/FBI are truly qualified and the other 95% think they are.
Stevie
Member
I've studied the infamous 'Miami-Shootout' off and on for decades...sometimes officially and sometimes because it makes interesting although tragic reading.
It is what it was...quick and ugly.
Really the only solid fact I gained is that a Mini-14 could be a serious asset...that and shoot for the head...
It is what it was...quick and ugly.
Really the only solid fact I gained is that a Mini-14 could be a serious asset...that and shoot for the head...
OP
I've used this before but....
To the comments that point out that the criminals were very desperate and aggressive there is this quote from 'The Outlaw Josey Wales' that seems appropriate:
"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is."
To the comments that point out that the criminals were very desperate and aggressive there is this quote from 'The Outlaw Josey Wales' that seems appropriate:
"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is."
I saw the TV show and watched the FBI tape that covers the shooting.
Just going off of memory, two agents were out of the fight from the start.
I believe one had his sidearm on his seat under his leg and during the process the gun flew off the seat. One agent who was a former SWAT guy lost his glasses when his car crashed or stopped. They said he was almost blind without them. To really make sense of this incident it makes a big difference if you have seen the FBI after action video or at least the TV show.
Just going off of memory, two agents were out of the fight from the start.
I believe one had his sidearm on his seat under his leg and during the process the gun flew off the seat. One agent who was a former SWAT guy lost his glasses when his car crashed or stopped. They said he was almost blind without them. To really make sense of this incident it makes a big difference if you have seen the FBI after action video or at least the TV show.
SuperMan
Member
I also have studied everything I can find on the Shootout for the last 25 years and it is truly most fascinating because the more you study the more and more unanswered questions you find.
At one time I had a half dozen+ videos of FBI interviews, Dade County interviews and talks that some of the Agents involved gave at some police academies. One of the most useless and totally wrong videos is the made for tv movie...so totally wrong that from what I read the Agents who saw a preview of the film wrote the network asking that it not be shown..
Several have stated that the shotguns the agents had at the scene were in the trunks of the cars...not true. They were loaded and on the back seat in hard cases. As I recall there were only two shotguns at the scene, the one Mirales had and the other was on the backseat of Supervisor Gordon McNeil's vehicle. And as DR505 stated there were other Agents who were on this roving search who didn't make it to the scene who had automatic weapons. Just the luck of the draw that day.
One of the questions I had concerned Agent Dove's S&W handgun. The picture I have seen is the gun in lockback, on the pavement with blood all over the ground around it. From things I read, the gun had been hit and Dove was on the drivers side of the vehicle kneeling where he had moved from the passenger seat where he fired most (or all) of his rounds. There was obvious damage to the left side of the slide probably from a bullet. For whatever reason this just didn't completely make sense to me.
In 2006 I was lucky to make the acquaintance of a retired federal agent who I later met up with on a trip to the SW. He was very familiar with the Shootout as he was his agencies regional firearms instructor and had taken several classes reviewing the incident. He stated that Dove's gun was actually empty and that is why it was at lockback. He was kneeling beside his vehicle when his partner Ben Grogan was shot. When Platt came around the back of the vehicle he then shot Dove in the back and he fell forward onto the gun. As Dove tried to push himself up Platt was standing almost directly over him and fired into his back and the bullet passed through Dove hitting the gun that was under him... If anyone can confirm this I would appreciate knowing.
I have read hundreds of pages of the FBI report and can find nowhere that there were any rounds remaining in Agent Dove's gun even though he is credited with only having fired 20 rounds. Does anyone have the answer to this? A S&W 5900 Series magazine holds 14 rounds. Dove's initial empty magazine was found on the passenger floor of his vehicle. If his second magazine was indeed empty that is 28 (or 29 if he topped off) rounds fired. The FBI only gives him credit for firing 20 rounds...because...that is all the empty cases they could find that could be linked to his gun...
The same happened to Agent Ron Risner who was across the street with Agent Orrantia. Risner is "credited" with SIX rounds fired even though he emptied his 14 round magazine....again because the lab could only determine that six of the fired cases found at the scene came from his weapon....so the rest didn't happen. He also fired one round from his backup .38 Chief before reloading his 5900 but didn't fire any more rounds after reloading...
...as said...the more you read the more unanswered questions there are.
It is truly sad that Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove died that day. But with the changes in LE training and tactics that have been made because of their deaths they gave their lives so more could survive...
Bob
At one time I had a half dozen+ videos of FBI interviews, Dade County interviews and talks that some of the Agents involved gave at some police academies. One of the most useless and totally wrong videos is the made for tv movie...so totally wrong that from what I read the Agents who saw a preview of the film wrote the network asking that it not be shown..
Several have stated that the shotguns the agents had at the scene were in the trunks of the cars...not true. They were loaded and on the back seat in hard cases. As I recall there were only two shotguns at the scene, the one Mirales had and the other was on the backseat of Supervisor Gordon McNeil's vehicle. And as DR505 stated there were other Agents who were on this roving search who didn't make it to the scene who had automatic weapons. Just the luck of the draw that day.
One of the questions I had concerned Agent Dove's S&W handgun. The picture I have seen is the gun in lockback, on the pavement with blood all over the ground around it. From things I read, the gun had been hit and Dove was on the drivers side of the vehicle kneeling where he had moved from the passenger seat where he fired most (or all) of his rounds. There was obvious damage to the left side of the slide probably from a bullet. For whatever reason this just didn't completely make sense to me.
In 2006 I was lucky to make the acquaintance of a retired federal agent who I later met up with on a trip to the SW. He was very familiar with the Shootout as he was his agencies regional firearms instructor and had taken several classes reviewing the incident. He stated that Dove's gun was actually empty and that is why it was at lockback. He was kneeling beside his vehicle when his partner Ben Grogan was shot. When Platt came around the back of the vehicle he then shot Dove in the back and he fell forward onto the gun. As Dove tried to push himself up Platt was standing almost directly over him and fired into his back and the bullet passed through Dove hitting the gun that was under him... If anyone can confirm this I would appreciate knowing.
I have read hundreds of pages of the FBI report and can find nowhere that there were any rounds remaining in Agent Dove's gun even though he is credited with only having fired 20 rounds. Does anyone have the answer to this? A S&W 5900 Series magazine holds 14 rounds. Dove's initial empty magazine was found on the passenger floor of his vehicle. If his second magazine was indeed empty that is 28 (or 29 if he topped off) rounds fired. The FBI only gives him credit for firing 20 rounds...because...that is all the empty cases they could find that could be linked to his gun...
The same happened to Agent Ron Risner who was across the street with Agent Orrantia. Risner is "credited" with SIX rounds fired even though he emptied his 14 round magazine....again because the lab could only determine that six of the fired cases found at the scene came from his weapon....so the rest didn't happen. He also fired one round from his backup .38 Chief before reloading his 5900 but didn't fire any more rounds after reloading...
...as said...the more you read the more unanswered questions there are.
It is truly sad that Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove died that day. But with the changes in LE training and tactics that have been made because of their deaths they gave their lives so more could survive...
Bob
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OP
But then, one of the perps.....
But then, one of the perps was knocked out through most of fight. The one guy with the rifle gave the agents hell.
But then, one of the perps was knocked out through most of fight. The one guy with the rifle gave the agents hell.
OP
Yep, screwy reports...
I have two mags for my 5943. One a 15 round and the other a 10 round, not counting a round in the chamber. If he were using 10 round mags (unlikely) it could add up to 20. Either way the analysis doesn't add up. You are right. These 'reports' look pretty screwy.
I have two mags for my 5943. One a 15 round and the other a 10 round, not counting a round in the chamber. If he were using 10 round mags (unlikely) it could add up to 20. Either way the analysis doesn't add up. You are right. These 'reports' look pretty screwy.
OP
Arik
Member
I was like what the...? When did I post that? Apparently 2 years ago
OP
Thanks for the additional info....
That's great info and all I disagree with was that the .38s finished the fight. It had gone too long and the .38s were only effective when the perps were in the car and the agents were able to move in AT CLOSE RANGE though a car window, which is within the realm of a handgun. Fighting across the street behind car doors for cover the agents really needed rifles and the crooks would never have gotten that far.
That's great info and all I disagree with was that the .38s finished the fight. It had gone too long and the .38s were only effective when the perps were in the car and the agents were able to move in AT CLOSE RANGE though a car window, which is within the realm of a handgun. Fighting across the street behind car doors for cover the agents really needed rifles and the crooks would never have gotten that far.
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OP
No, more like.....
No, more like a year and five months. But we never got around to. It may be passe' but other people have indicated here that EFFECTIVE changes have been made since then other than arguing about using a bigger handgun.
Anyway, if it's put up as forum fodder I'm sure somebody will get a kick out of it.
I was like what the...? When did I post that? Apparently 2 years ago
No, more like a year and five months. But we never got around to. It may be passe' but other people have indicated here that EFFECTIVE changes have been made since then other than arguing about using a bigger handgun.
Anyway, if it's put up as forum fodder I'm sure somebody will get a kick out of it.
