My turn for the A/C to break!

[Ivan the Butcher]

MY condo is about 12 or 13 years old, and we've lived here 3 and a half years. I had gone for a 25 mile bike ride Saturday morning, so I fell asleep in my easy chair right after dinner. At 10:30 I woke up and the wife was in the sewing room and mentions the A/C isn't cooling like it should. I looked out side and the Condenser unit isn't running at all so I put the thermostat to off and the fan to on and let it rest overnight.

After church Sunday I pull out my tools and start checking all the "usual suspects"; broken or burnt wire and contacts. Everything looked beautiful, In fact it didn't look like anyone had been inside the A/C since installation! That is always a good sign! So I turned the thermostat to cool and went back out to look at it. The fan wasn't running and the compressor was not starting but going straight into "reset". I shut down the disconnect switch, next to the A/C and got out the multi meter. My ohms area is dead, so I put a new AA battery in and it is still dead. I tell the wife I need to run to Lowe's to buy a new cheap multi tester; would she like to ride along and we can celebrate National Ice Cream Day while we are out. She had just written checks for the early month bill so after the Post Office we stopped at Whit's Frozen Custard, She got the flavor of the week, Mint Cookies & Cream, I got the standby Chocolate. Off to Lowe's like a herd of turtles! I but the least expensive meter they have $12.99 ( I used to get them for $7.99, the time are a changin')!

Back Home I pull the combo start capacitor and fan. The fan motor test good on all the legs, the capacitor is dead on both the 5uf and 35uf legs, so there is my culprit! I leave the house at 6:45 this morning and after a pit stop at MICKY D's I'm at the parts house 2 minutes before they open at 7:30 I have the offending part and model number and lie and say it is for my companies cash account ( that company has been defunct for 10 years!) They sell to me, but I pay dealer list instead of wholesale, still 20% less than retail! $6.68 +2% for charge card (14 cents) + 50 cents sales tax for a total of $7.32.

I am going the opposite of rush hour traffic and get home in 20 minutes. I had returned everything I could last night so it took maybe 5 minutes to install the capacitor. BUT I forgot the exact wiring and the schematic was unclear on 1 wire. I drove around the condo complex looking until I found an empty unit, I removed the A/C access panel and took 3 photos of the wiring and closed it back up. I went back to my unit corrected the wire I had wrong, turned the thermostat to cool and fan to auto. I turned on the disconnect switch and everything powered up fine. The fan had the mild roar they are suppose to make and the compressor had the proper underlying hum. It was throwing of heat in about 20 seconds, so I returned the access cover and closed the windows and drapes. I called the wife at work and gave her the good news.

It took an actual time of 2 1/2 hours including buying a multi-meter and travel. The cost was just over $20 with the meter. I am out of practice and have no parts in stock, my tool are no longer organized for A/C service. Back in the day (sold in 2006) my brother would have charged about $75 for the call and actual price for the parts! On the worst day of the year we had same day service. We had very few customers (only people we sold the building to) and they loved us, most often mailing a check before our bill arrived!

Nobody else I know does business like that! They could but nobody wants to be good AND affordable! Just rude AND expensive!

Ivan

 

[Nevada Ed]

I never got into knowing how to work with electricity and hate myself for it.
I just carry an extra water pump and correct size fan belt for my old cooler.

You are right about prices going up !!

From here on in to the last part of September, is no time for the A/C to break down.

Stay cool, man.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

You have done very well. Most of us don't have your knowledge or expertise, so we are at the mercy of tradesmen for our repairs. I always tell people that when they find a contractor who is straightforward and honest they should hold him close to their hearts and spread the word to family and friends.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of contractors who look at each service call as an opportunity to sell a new unit. The guys with the slick, professional half-page newspaper ads and yellow pages ads are best avoided, in my experience, especially when they advertise "low cost financing available". The companies whose "estimators" are actually commissioned sales people are also best avoided.

Also unfortunately, the economy and inflation have driven up costs significantly over the past several decades. Contractors' general liability insurance premiums have gone through the roof (frequently 20 times what was common 15 or 20 years ago), workers' compensation coverage is also sky high, a $40K to $50K service truck is now required to do what a $20K truck did not very long ago, and $3-plus per gallon fuel adds another layer of expense in doing business. The small independent contractor is now dealing with health insurance costs that are 5 to 10 times what he might have paid just 10 years ago.

I predict that it won't be long before the days of free inspections and estimates are gone forever; when it costs $300 to $400 per day to pay an experienced serviceman, cover insurance, vehicle expenses, and other overhead, it is getting very challenging to send qualified people out day after day without charging the costs of providing that most basic service.

$20 per hour is actually pretty minimal pay for a trained and experienced HVAC technician. Workers' comp, unemployment insurance, liability insurance, vehicle insurance, and vehicle operating costs will quickly turn even that relatively low number into $30 or $40 (especially if there is an employer-sponsored health plan). Two hours to drive across town, perform a detailed diagnostic service, and get back to the shop turns into $60 to $80 raw cost to the company, and doing that 3 to 5 times per day means a drain on company assets to the tune of $180 to $400 per day. Somehow the contractor has to figure out a way to sell something every day that will cover that cost and add a little profit in order to stay in business.

It ain't easy being in a service-oriented business these days. There is no excuse for those who lie, cheat, or steal, but everyone else needs to be paid fairly so they will still be around next week, next month, or next year when we need them.

Best regards.

 

[Marine Corps Air]

My turn for the A/C to break

It's always great to read a story with a fantastic ending!!!

Diagnostics and troubleshooting is usually the toughest phase of repairs. Ivan nailed it, every step of the way. With the exception of a defective compressor last year, my A/C problems have usually been with either the start, or run capacitor, or the relay unit.

The relay failures were associated with ants or bugs infiltrating the unit. Now I spray insecticide from Lowes around my units every month in the summer. That potential problem has been solved.

Kudos to Ivan on this experience, especially celebrating National Ice Creme Day before starting the repairs. Rocky Road or Cookies and Creme works for me.

Bill

 

[paulh]

I don't do AC but your 2nd sentence explains why I charge what I do for refer issues.

 

[nachogrande]

MINE'S GONNA COST MORE!

A/C guy is here right now. Compressor was a block of ice this AM. Humidifier gauge was pinned @ 100, 83 degrees. 1 Month out on the warranty. Gotta go look for the KY.

 

[nachogrande]

GOT THE BAD NEWS

What's the ballpark $ figure for a 5 ton Frigidaire A/C expansion valve, roughly. Thanks.

 

[paulh]

A/C guy is here right now. Compressor was a block of ice this AM. Humidifier gauge was pinned @ 100, 83 degrees. 1 Month out on the warranty. Gotta go look for the KY.

First of all it's impossible for the comp to be encased in ice. Same for condenser. Evap yes. So if this guy told you that tell him to hit the road.

 

[nachogrande]

SAW IT WITH MY OWN EYES X 2

It was the largest piece (compressor I thought???) under the fan in the outside unit. DEFINATELY frosted/iced up good. The hose & power nozzle (the Italian broom) got the ice off it. EDIT: swap compressor with condenser (???), my bad. I should know better having been a ship/rec cluck for Brothers heating/plumbing supplies in Denver in 82-83. Everything was just a number to me.

 

[muddocktor]

Ivan, I had the same thing happen to me last week. The house started getting stuffy around 11:00 PM and while I was going out to let the dog in for the night noticed that the condenser fan wasn't running, but the compressor was. I turned off the outside unit from the thermostat and let the outside unit cool down. I then decided to see if the fan would spin up if I gave it a push start with a long screwdriver and turned the unit back on. The fan did slowly spin up then, but the compressor went to immediate reset.

The next morning I called the A/C people I usually use and they got to the house by the afternoon. Sure enough, the capacitor was bad and he had the correct replacement and got me back up and running. Only problem was what cost you less than $25 ended up costing me over $150. But, I'm not an A/C person and don't know where to buy the parts. And with as hot and humid it is down here it just hurt a little bit when the bill came in. BTW, they charged $100/hr labor on the bill. I might have to shop around for a new A/C repairman I think. These folks used to be reasonable, but they look to be padding the bill quite a bit. That capacitor you paid $7.32 for; well they charged over $50 on the bill!

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I don't do AC but your 2nd sentence explains why I charge what I do for refer issues.

??? please explain.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

What's the ballpark $ figure for a 5 ton Frigidaire A/C expansion valve, roughly. Thanks.

Not familiar with the current pricing for parts. But the cost of installation will involve reclaiming all the refrigerant (commonly called Freon) major disassembly, then reassembly pressure test and then return the refrigerant.
Some companies only reclaim and recycle Freon the don't have a system for reuse (SO you pay for new!). On the outside of all A/C units and furnaces with A/C coils is a tag with lots of numbers it also includes the amount and type of Refrigerant, add those two totals and add about 19 ounces for the copper line connecting the two, There could be 5% more for filters & ect. Now you know how much you should be billed for. I have no Idea how much they charge per pound, but for R-22, it should be a FEW $ per pound. Find out up front! There is no negotiation on the price, just find someone else if you are being ripped off!

Ivan

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

First of all it's impossible for the comp to be encased in ice. Same for condenser. Evap yes. So if this guy told you that tell him to hit the road.

Not to argue, but I have seen compressors covered in solid frozen condensation (aka; ice). In Ohio it usually takes days of not working right and continued running without any air coming out the vents!

Ivan

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I wrote/started this thread, to show how easy some problems can be. If you are all thumbs with tools, please don't try this yourself. But if you are a little handy and can use a basic multi meter, it won't hurt to check out what you can. I haven't talked about individuals work with the refrigerant. That is a federal No-No without an EPA certificate, but you can do anything electrical, and you can add up totals on Freon! Don't be foolish, don't do anything unsafe, just be aware and beware!

Ivan

 

[paulh]

Not to argue, but I have seen compressors covered in solid frozen condensation (aka; ice). In Ohio it usually takes days of not working right and continued running without any air coming out the vents!

Ivan

Bull, compressors run hot, no way in hell they'll gather ice.

 

[paulh]

??? please explain.

Diagnostics. I charge $130 for the 1st 1/2 hour in the home to diagnose problem.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Bull, compressors run hot, no way in hell they'll gather ice.

OK, If you had worked on them and with them you would realize, the heat comes from the compressing of the refrigerant (hence the name). When the amount of refrigerant leaks below around 55 psi on the suction side, the surface temperature of your evaporator coil drops below 32 degrees F. (blocked air flow causes this also) The "Ice" on the surface starts inside the furnace and slowly works back to the compressor, it is in fact the last thing covered. The copper lines are supposed to be covered in insulation, so you can't see the progress. (I saw it progress about 8" a minute one time! on non-insulated lines)

The "Ice" has to be completely gone before you can get the final and proper pressure/temperature readings. I always told my tenants and paying customers to shut the A/C of at the first sign of problems! Very few would listen! (They thought they knew better, like paulh!) I often had to return the next day to start repairs. And the previous nights problems took precedence!

Compared to the guys that taught me A/C repair, I'm new at it! I started in 1974, one of them started in the 50's while in college. My granddad died 9 years before I was born, Refrigeration was his trade, and his cousins owned City Fuel and Ice in Columbus. The whole area depended on their knowledge to keep the fresh food from spoiling. Some of the stories about what happened are truly unbelievable, from a text book physics point of view, but experience shows us there are things the books never took into consideration!

Ivan

 

[nachogrande]

THANKS IVAN.

I don't do AC

OBVIOUSLY!

I may not know squat about A/C or the correct names of parts, but I DO KNOW ice/frost when I see it. "impossible" is almost as bad as saying always or never. Whether it's the compressor (1st choice) or condenser it has frozen multiple times before when Freon or R22 was low & again when the "Freon filter" was bad. Thanks for the helpful polite reply's Ivan, you are a class act.

 

[vonn]

Been working on people’s stuff for years and I really get tired of them accusing service men of being crooks. I know very few service people who have become wealthy beyond lower middle class. The biggest complainers are usually the people who make the most money. Think they give discounts to anyone? Not likely.

 

[Collo Rosso]

I but the least expensive meter they have $12.99 ( I used to get them for $7.99, the time are a changin')!

Those cheap little pocket meters work great, but are cheaply made. Early 80's the company I worked for issued me a new Fluke 75. First digital meter I ever worked with. When I left they didn't ask for it back! I still have it and it works like the day I got. It doesn't look like the day I got it though.