Mystery Gun- What is it?
- Thread starter Varangi
- Start date
DWalt
Member
It's been awhile since I have seen the picture, but its shape seems similar to Mason's design for a Winchester revolver. I think there was only one of those made, and it certainly would not have S&W markings.
charlie sherrill
Member
The suspence is killing me!
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 27,669
- Reaction score
- 21,359
To the OP, while we are waiting with baited breath for someone with information - what is the story behind the gun? Inquiring minds want to know! 
It sure looks like a real S & W to me anyway...and definitely not a Khyber Pass or Chinese or even Belgian rendition.
All is very high quality, and the details are S&W all day long.
Wow...what a curious old odd-ball it is!
Hand Ejector, Single Action, and, in .41 S&W Cartridge...it's got it all!!
I'd love to hear what Roy has to say about it.
All is very high quality, and the details are S&W all day long.
Wow...what a curious old odd-ball it is!
Hand Ejector, Single Action, and, in .41 S&W Cartridge...it's got it all!!
I'd love to hear what Roy has to say about it.
Masterpiece
Member
James,
The Screw forward the Side-Plate is most assuredly the Yoke Retention Screw as found on the Model of 1896's!!
As far as the Trigger-Guard Location, I believe that is related to it being a Single Action Revolver & if you take a look it's in a very similar location to where the Trigger-Guard is located on the Single Action No.3's !! I also believe the Odd Pin Locations seen on the opposite side are related to it being Single Action as well!!
I know in my First Post I said I was going to sit this Thread out for a while, but I suppose it's too late to turn back now!! Oh well, where's the fun in that!! Ha!~Ha!
Last edited:
Masterpiece
Member
Alan,To the OP, while we are waiting with baited breath for someone with information - what is the story behind the gun? Inquiring minds want to know!
I wholeheartly agree with that statement!! Even a whisper of a "Hint" would be greatly appreciated!!
Sebago Son
Member
Kept me up all night....
I've plied several old references in my library including Hartink's, Bannerman's and Stoeger, gleaning a little more info with every page. Finally in A.B. Zhuk's work "Illustrated Handguns" I located a wood cut of the Spanish ALPHA as built by the Basque Arms Making Collective; ARMERO ESPECIALISTAS REUNIDAS, in Eibar, Spain by the Orbea Brothers. The appearance is not identical, but very, very similar.
Given the lack of inhibition the Basques seemed to have about bold faced counterfeiting of the Smith & Wesson pattern guns, often right down to the pirating of the S&W logo, this seems more and most likely in my mind.
Lastly, the chambering is also telling. The OP says that a .41 Long Colt will drop into the chamber. According to F.C. Barnes, Case Diameter of which round is: .405". Bore is .401".
According to Zhuk, the ALPHA was also chambered in the 10.4mm rimmed round and sold to Spanish allies before and during the First World War.
Again, Barnes tells us; that the 10.35mm (10.4mm) Case Diameter is: .444-.451", bore is.422". I speculate that a .41 Colt round would drop into a cylinder chambered for the 10.35mm round.
My best guess at this point is that this is a Spanish Copy, loosely patterned after the S&W 1899, and including clear cut S&W copyright infringements. I suspect it was built in Eibar, Spain by the Orbea Brothers as the ALPHA ARMERO and chambered in the 10.35 rimmed revolver round. Maybe by one of my great cousins....
I'm open to learning more and the contributing research of others....
Drew
I've plied several old references in my library including Hartink's, Bannerman's and Stoeger, gleaning a little more info with every page. Finally in A.B. Zhuk's work "Illustrated Handguns" I located a wood cut of the Spanish ALPHA as built by the Basque Arms Making Collective; ARMERO ESPECIALISTAS REUNIDAS, in Eibar, Spain by the Orbea Brothers. The appearance is not identical, but very, very similar.
Given the lack of inhibition the Basques seemed to have about bold faced counterfeiting of the Smith & Wesson pattern guns, often right down to the pirating of the S&W logo, this seems more and most likely in my mind.
Lastly, the chambering is also telling. The OP says that a .41 Long Colt will drop into the chamber. According to F.C. Barnes, Case Diameter of which round is: .405". Bore is .401".
According to Zhuk, the ALPHA was also chambered in the 10.4mm rimmed round and sold to Spanish allies before and during the First World War.
Again, Barnes tells us; that the 10.35mm (10.4mm) Case Diameter is: .444-.451", bore is.422". I speculate that a .41 Colt round would drop into a cylinder chambered for the 10.35mm round.
My best guess at this point is that this is a Spanish Copy, loosely patterned after the S&W 1899, and including clear cut S&W copyright infringements. I suspect it was built in Eibar, Spain by the Orbea Brothers as the ALPHA ARMERO and chambered in the 10.35 rimmed revolver round. Maybe by one of my great cousins....
I'm open to learning more and the contributing research of others....
Drew
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 27,669
- Reaction score
- 21,359
Drew;
Which one of the illustrations on the page resembles the gun in question? This one is a SA hand ejector with a right-sided sideplate; the ones in the photo are all recognizable as S & W copies, some with minor variations (like the Double Action copy with the sash spur at the top).
Which one of the illustrations on the page resembles the gun in question? This one is a SA hand ejector with a right-sided sideplate; the ones in the photo are all recognizable as S & W copies, some with minor variations (like the Double Action copy with the sash spur at the top).
Masterpiece
Member
Drew,
I agree there is somewhat of a similarity on the Alpha, but still feel the dissimilarities outweigh the similarities found on the OP's Revolver!! Truthfully the only really obvious similarity I see with the Alpha is the Ejector Rod!!
Of course that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't possible there's one like the OP's that they produced!!
By the way, I also like your Post Title as it's been the same for myself!!
With the help of all who have posted, I am now thinking that this gun more closely resembles the frame shape of the new model 3. The placement of the trigger guard is similar, the positioning of the trigger within the guard is the same, the backward sweep of the frame to the stocks is the same and the plain wood stock with the concave top is very similar to the Schofields.
There appears to be a notch cut in the trigger near the frame. Not sure what that is for.
There appears to be a notch cut in the trigger near the frame. Not sure what that is for.
OP
Varangi
Member
To the OP, while we are waiting with baited breath for someone with information - what is the story behind the gun? Inquiring minds want to know!
A citizen unknown to me walked into my buddy's LGS and played show and tell with it. I was not physically present at the time and the info I related to you folks was told to me by my buddy who knows I'm a nut for this stuff. He took some pics and sent them to me. The Citizen is a customer of his and I nay be able to get another peek at the gun- breaking it open to see what's inside might be a another story. The Citizen told my buddy it might be the only one of it's kind but I know nothing of how he got it. I'll follow-up after the weekend- Sorry for all the suspense guys-
Mike
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 27,669
- Reaction score
- 21,359
Thanks for the extra info. Where, oh where are the antique collectors when you really need them? 
Sebago Son
Member
Mike,
Please ask if it's a rim or centerfire. Also, it would be good if you can get an actual measurement of the cylinder length.
Drew
Please ask if it's a rim or centerfire. Also, it would be good if you can get an actual measurement of the cylinder length.
Drew
Sebago Son
Member
Alan, 550 is for an Alpha in .38 Long. The Modelo 1916 which was chambered in 10.35 Revolver was not shown. Drew
Masterpiece
Member
Drew,
Thanks for verifying the 550 as the Revolver you were referring to because that's the Revolver I based my earlier comments about!!
Also, after doing some further comparing of the 550 Revolver to the OP's, I think the 550 is nearly as close to a 1917 Copy you could expect, if it had the Forward Locking Lug on the Barrel, than the Revolver in question!!
Don't you or are you seeing something I'm not??
Masterpiece
Member
This Notch??
Are you referring to the Notch that's located at the Upper Rear of the Trigger?? If so, take a look at the photo I've attached that I just took from one of my NM#3 Single Actions!! You'll see it's very similar indeed to the OP's except it has a sharp cut to the notch!!
On a side note, if this Revolver "Does" eventually end up being something S&W was playing with at one time, it's sure going to have a "Very" Long Model Designation as it exhibits features from about 3-4 Revolvers so far that were still being produced in the same time-frame I expect this Revolver to have been built in!! Ha!~Ha!
Hmmm, I wonder what should we call it!!
James,
Are you referring to the Notch that's located at the Upper Rear of the Trigger?? If so, take a look at the photo I've attached that I just took from one of my NM#3 Single Actions!! You'll see it's very similar indeed to the OP's except it has a sharp cut to the notch!!
On a side note, if this Revolver "Does" eventually end up being something S&W was playing with at one time, it's sure going to have a "Very" Long Model Designation as it exhibits features from about 3-4 Revolvers so far that were still being produced in the same time-frame I expect this Revolver to have been built in!! Ha!~Ha!
Hmmm, I wonder what should we call it!!
Attachments
Sebago Son
Member
I really wish that Zhuk had a woodcut of the Modelo 1916.... then maybe I could get some sleep tonight...
Masterpiece
Member
Drew,I really wish that Zhuk had a woodcut of the Modelo 1916.... then maybe I could get some sleep tonight...
If just by luck this does actually end up being a Modelo 1916 Revolver as you're suggesting, I wish you did as well because I rarely sleep much at night anyway & now I'm getting even less!! Ha!~Ha!
Although I did see the OP posted that he's going to try to find some more out about it over the weekend!! Given that, if we're lucky, maybe he'll have a bit more info for us to work with come next week!! Sure would be nice!!
I think one way to at least begin to determine if this is a genuine Smith & Wesson would be to remove one or more of the sideplate screws and compare them to known genuine S&W production parts from the approximate era. Even if it is a prototype, S&W almost certainly wouldn't have made up special screws for it, or tapped it in a nonstandard thread. Likewise, the thumbpiece for releasing the cylinder and its retaining screw ought to be standard S&W stuff. Any variance would be grounds for doubt.
One thing does scream "fake" to me. It appears that the barrel isn't pinned.
One thing does scream "fake" to me. It appears that the barrel isn't pinned.
Similar threads
- Locked
