Name That .38 S&W Victory Raised Rib

[Nicksterdemus]

Since it found it's way on top of a Victory .38 S&W I think this forum would be the best. I haven't the foggiest notion where it came from or when though I suspect it to be at least fifty years of age.

It's four inches in length though it well could've been a bit longer. Perhaps up to five inches. It's a raised rib w/flat base, 21x 8.5x6mm", that surrounds the front sight. The front sight that came w/Barrel.

Yet, upon sloping the remainder three inches are domed on top w/hand checked engraving whilst sides taper from 3-1mm. Width of engraving 7mm overall rib width 10mm.

Since this is on a .38 S&W I speculate that the rib may be from across the pond. Plus the measurements work out almost entirely to even mm.

The inside of the rib is brass and that is sheathed by thin plate on at least three sides. It appears from the front that the original front side base of the barrel has been cut. Leaving only a thin blade sight that's been notched in the rear.

The front of the rib is notched in the middle, 18x2mm, allowing it to fit tightly against the existing blade on the barrel. Look as a tuning fork before assembly.

It's somewhat ingenious and simplistic in design. The two sides of front sight base had to be removed leaving only the thin blade, but then though requiring some means of mounting securely, it merely slipped on sight/barrel.

My '46 6" HE 38 spl barrel front site/base measures the same. Although the lopped off/no muzzle .38 S&W barrel is noticeably thicker.

It seems plausible that just the front sides of the base could have been notched just a bit. Exposing the sight blade all the way to the barrel. If this the case then the barrel rib base would then fit over the rest, as a cap, w/o completely removing the sides. Granted that would probably require design specifically for S&W models.

At the top where the barrel goes there is some metal relief. The installer then cut the rib exposing brass allowing it to taper into the relief. This secures the back of the rib. He left a notch perhaps by scratch awl on the right side lining up the rib to fit squarely. I guess. It's possible the front is a pressed fit.

It isn't a professional installation job, yet they did exhibit quite a bit of skill at moments. They had to cut the thin sheath of metal off the back end to expose the brass and then take some of that down to fit into the relief cut into the frame.

This is noticeable w/o loupe, but one is needed to see the thin metal sheath. Bear in mind that the size of the the rib width in the first pic is larger than the actual width of the cylinder. I'm surprised no one has taken a Sharpie to the revealed brass. It would blend well to the naked eye.

I think it's an interesting piece of work. I'm not sure why the muzzle was cut smooth matching the end of the rib base.

I welcome any speculation. Perchance the pics will jog a memory.

 

[29aholic]

I have seen several "gunsmith" made rib/sight combos like that over the years, predominantly pre-war guns. Crude but effective.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Do you feel the rib was liberated from another arm or was it perhaps a universal type rib intended as an upgrade for the amateur machinist/budding gunsmith?

The thin sheathed metal over brass had me speculating 1800's technology. Though if so it could've continued well into the 20th century where cheap labour again matches well w/lower technology in manufacturing.

If they had left the muzzle alone it would have looked exceedingly better to the casual glance.

 

[H Richard]

That muzzle appears to have been cut, so the original barrel was evidently somewhat longer.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Correct the crown is long gone. The barrel measures 4 13/16". It could only have been a 5" as the blade sight is still attached to the barrel.

Unless someone spot welded a blade sight and then ground it smooth. The barrel walls are almost 1/8" thick at 0.110".

Perhaps a 6" barrel cut down to match the length of the rib? Appears a bit wide for an almost 5" .38 S&W barrel.

My nickle-plate 1946 S 38 spl 5" barrel seems to be 0.095 at the muzzle.

Possibly the longer barrel was cut down specifically for the thicker walls w/intent on running higher pressure loads. Hot loads pushing 200 grains of lead could benefit from thicker muzzle walls.

It could happen. It's not as if I'm claiming this to be an OSS/M15 .38 S&W unregistered magnum. Although that would make for a whopping good tale.

 

[Malysh]

I have seen several "gunsmith" made rib/sight combos like that over the years, predominantly pre-war guns. Crude but effective.

No offense, but I wouldn't call that work crude.
I think it was quite nicely done. I wish I had a level of metal working skill as good as that.

 

[howiema]

RIB

I would say maybe a Cogswell and Harrison job from the English conversion pieces.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

"I think it was quite nicely done."
Everything within perspective. The manufacturing quality of the rib is superior to the installation. That isn't up to snuff on a factory level.

The tolerance at the back where the rib was tucked under the frame is a bit excessive. Almost 1mm and the shroud cut is not quite perpendicular. However, were it not for the yellow colour of the brass it wouldn't stick out nearly as bad under normal vision/lighting. Though I like the simplicity of anchoring the back of the rib w/frame.

If the barrel crown was left, or if a cut barrel were another crown cut, it would make a world of difference in perception. Still wouldn't be factory quality though it would be a lot closer. The unknown for me is the rib. I don't know what it is or what it was before this application. The hand checkering though not elaborate is a nice touch. As is the lateral crown instead of a flat topped rib. The barrel pin ends filed smooth then blued mimics newer models. Just another little touch of someone's preference/imagination/vision.

Overall it represents an honest effort to add a little pizzazz to an old shooter. I do not know the condition nor circumstances prior to the work being performed. Probably a safe bet that they overextended their skill level a wee bit. I'm relatively confident that the sight base didn't originally come w/blunt front shaped as a tuning fork, but what do I know?

Combined w/customizing is unaltered .38 S&W chambers when folks were drilling them left and right to accept the longer 38 spl. A mite peculiar, yet I am not qualified to judge. Somebody manufactured that rib and they were bound to have made a few.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Some Parker Hale.

 

[Jim Watson]

There were a lot of anonymous modifications made to surplus firearms back when a Free American could have one delivered to his doorstep at a low price. Pinning them down is tough.

What boggles my mind is "The thin sheathed metal over brass..."
How, why, would anybody make a rib that way. Think of the WORK.
I trust you mean "metal" in the old colloquialism of "metal" = steel. Have you checked it with a magnet?

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Yes, a ferrous metal sheet that is magnetic. A mild steel that is shaped in a crown, flat, rolled edges and ninety degrees adorned w/diamond etched pattern within a rectangle border.

This is the construction I see, w/10x loupe, from the rear where the rib was pierced along the top and sides. The yellow is brilliant as in not tarnished especially under direct light.

It appears that sheetmetal was stamped under pressure by a die and that hollow shape was poured w/brass. Then a blank could've shaped the brass side for fit to barrel radius/taper or placed in a jig cutting the shape to fit. The block style front base might require some solder at the tip to retain shape before pouring.

This is all speculation based on what I can see and how it could be manufactured. As previously noted the width of the barrel at muzzle is considerably thicker than a six inch 38 spl muzzle from 1946.

Due to that I wonder if this is a cut barrel w/blade sight spot welded in place. Grind the welds/muzzle smooth and position the tuning fork front base w/relative ease. As opposed to five inch barrel having the sides of the base cut.

I'm not sure of the differences twixt 5 & 6" .38 S&W barrels. Can one tell by looking other than the length?

If this is the rib in it's entirety then it is a conversion piece. And it would seem designed either for a cut 6" barrel or a 5" that had the front sight base either completely removed w/blade sight tacked on or the sides cut and the muzzle/front of base ground to the blade sight. Or the rib base is a cap that covers the original front sight base and by being split incorporates the existing sight blade.

Whatever it is there has to be a few more out there floating around on top of something.

Here's a pic from a slightly different angle.
ETA: I know you aren't obtaining the same resolution that I have from the pic. I tried taking pics in direct sunlight, but was too bright washing detail turning the yellow into opaque. I did confirm the sheetmetal w/loupe, led flashlight and the point of a razor knife. So, there's no possibility that the entire rib is brass w/some type of coating and way too thick for electroplating.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

This one is close to my Victory and the SN is only around 16K shy of mine. http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...s-w-victory-model-serial-number-lookup-4.html

Lifted from M18386pounder a raised rib Victory in the same vein. I'm hoping for a close-up from the front of his sight.

Perhaps my tuning fork style was fabricated from such instead of being from original design.

So far the pattern is jeweled trigger/hammer, raised rib w/checkered/diamond shape pattern on a Victory 38 S&W. Mine is still in .38 S&W trim.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

They aren't so much better quality than being a different type/style of construction. Being Opie I have the luxury of sorts in examining my rib w/10X loupe. In construction terms it is very good quality though simplistic in what I refer unto as a tuning fork design that slides on both sides of the original blade front sight. However, someone cut the rear of the rib in installing it on my Victory. This leads me to believe that perhaps it was salvaged from another conversion. None would take the time to build that rib and then mount it in such a haphazard fashion.

Likewise, I find it a mite bit to swallow that this rib was designed w/o a solid front and also intended to be installed w/barrel muzzle cut 3/16" eliminating the crown. This too solidifies my belief of a salvaged rib and possibly jeweled trigger/hammer. I don't know. I posted the pics of Parker Hale merely to demonstrate a more modern design and technique in construction. Not to say it is better/worse, but merely to highlight differences amongst raised ribs that found popularity in Victory .38 S&W conversions.

The work is nicely done. I had no intent in opposing your opinion. I'm just at a loss at what I have perched on the Victory. Is it complete or has it been converted as well as the revolver?

I'm attempting to answer the question by posting pics I find of various ribs used in these conversions. Thanks for the input. Perchance in striving to remain objective I appeared unappreciative of your post. My apologies should I have come across as callous or indifferent.

[ETA: Post I was answering has been deleted by the author, so continuity will naturally suffer.]

 

[Hondo44]

My two cents:

One of the better looking added ribs I've seen. It could have been milled from scratch or pre made and adapted to this application.

I believe the brass is from brazing the steel rib in place and at the same time the brazing filled in some voids like at the ends of the rib at the muzzle and at the frame.

Clearly a cut barrel and homemade front sight blade. Too long to be the remains of an original front blade with original base milled or filed away. Especially considering the amount of the blade at the rear filed flush to the top of the base.

If it were mine:

I'd turn the barrel in a lathe and turn back the front sight base/blade a proper distance, then cut a proper muzzle crown.

Or file/mill back the front sight blade/base and use a brownells crown cutter to properly crown the inside and outside of muzzle.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

More than dos centavos hombre. I always enjoy those much more knowledgeable/experienced sharing.
However, I must respectfully disagree on your conclusions.

The brass doesn't exhibit flow that I would expect from a flux tipped brazing rod. Quite the contrare as it shows a grainy pattern that I would consider consistent w/cast. The rib appears to have been cut w/Dremel cut-off wheel.

I think the rib was cut long and then scored w/cut-off wheel. The metal sheath is thin enough that it was easy to make a cut on each side to the score. This allowed fairly clean removal of the sheath from the rear exposing the cast brass. That was shaved down to fit.

Using the 1946 38 spl barrel I measure the length of the sight at the top of ther base. It is the same length as the sight protruding from the raised rib. Granted I have to include the rear area of the blade that has been notched. Likewise the height the blade from the top of the barrel is the same as is the width. Though that's not to say it isn't homeade to the same dimensions.

When I picked up the sidearm I asked my gunsmith how much it would cost to crown the barrel. Knowing how cheap I am he replied, "I'd shoot it first and see how accurate it is now." I like your crown suggestions though I'll gnaw on it for a while before committing.

Just because I think something doesn't make it so. You are probably right, yet I have to try to make sense out of what I see. Perchance a mirage. I'd be happy to share any of my original resolution pics for your scrutiny. If you'd care to take a closer peek at 1.7MB shoot me an e-mail.

 

[Hondo44]

If I understand correctly, the rib is brass covered with a thin layer of ferrous metal. An aftermarket 'heavy' rib being the purpose of the brass I suppose. You're right I can't see it that well, but I'm perfectly happy to take your word for it.

The builder was careful (or lucky enough) not to sand thru the ferrous metal sheath (unless solid at that point as you suggested) when he ground the muzzle and front end of the rib/sight base. Which means crowning the muzzle according to my advice might be a big mistake if it exposes brass.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Your explanation in cutting the entire rib out of bar stock is much more sound than my shaky sheathed approach. I don't defend my position as much as I cannot explain the back portion w/exposed brass.

I even thought perhaps the thin sheetmetal an illusion until I felt it, whilst looking through the 10X loupe holding a LED light, w/point of a razor knife.

On that one millimeter twixt the back of the rib and the frame there is a lateral cut in the brass. This cut is not clean and could be post installation exploratory gash. That screams hand held Dremel cut-off wheel post-installation.

What would be the effect of blue on brass? Nothing?

It still could be solid steel. They could have cut a channel in the back of the rib and filled that w/brass rod and no flux. Maybe that would mimic a cast appearance. As well the top front of the two piece base surrounding the blade sight each have what amounts to a single file short stroke at 45* to the top corners. Again, perhaps exploratory by a previous owner. No other reason for that not to be blued as well and it is a shiny steel.

Except for being a softer metal that is easier to melt and conducive to use in molds there isn't much reason to use that application when equipment/skill is readily available to tool steel.

 

[red9]

The upcoming RI auction has a pair of very similar revolvers in a double holster rig. Interestingly, the serial numbers have been removed from the butts and replaced with the name of the wild west show performing owner.

Bob

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Well, that does pique me curiosity a mite. I'll ease over that away and take a look see. Thanks for the lead.

ETA: Resemblance is quite uncanny. I wonder where Ken snagged those gussied up modified Vs? I'd like to see a pic from the top of the entire rib/sight. They list SN 676787 mine is 670313 for a 6,474 difference. The sequentially numbered, if omission on butt is only disqualifier, helps the vision if not illusion.

Now I'll claim mine as an early KM prototype. Of course I wonder how many others are out there w/perhaps a name on a smooth butt.

A quick peek on Ken turns up this tidbit:

" By 1938 his weight ballooned and his popularity nosedived and his future film work was limited. With so many bridges figuratively burned during his career, his acting career came to an end by the mid-40s. With nowhere else to go, Ken turned to the big top, working for the Cole Brothers-Clyde Beatty Circus, playing off his former film glory. Having blown through a fortune, old age and alcohol did not treat him kindly. Married multiple times, Ken's last wife, Bertha died in 1968 and he found himself living largely off meager Social Security checks. His final years were tainted by his association with a girlfriend who encouraged him to sell phony memorabilia."

"Deteriorating finances forced Maynard to work for circuses as his film career waned after 1936, including an attempt that year at his very own "Wild West Circus", also called the Diamond K Wild West Show, which operated out of his California ranch. He completed at least three stints with the Cole Brothers-Clyde Beatty Circus from 1937-1940, and worked the Arthur Brothers Circus and the Biller Brothers Circus."

"Maynard made his last starring appearance in Harmony Trail (1944), a low-budget film for Walt Maddox Productions. Astor re-released it in 1947 as White Stallion.

By that point in time, Maynard's film career was almost over. He starred in a radio series, Tales from the Diamond K, in 1951, did more circus appearances and lent his name to the comic book Ken Maynard Western, which ran for eight issues. He finished his career with small roles in two low-budget features, Bigfoot (1970) and The Marshal of Windy Hollow (1972). The latter, which co-starred Sunset Carson and Tex Ritter, was never released and is now believed lost."

it's possible that those listed were part of some act parlaying his former western notoriety. Due to advancing age the DA would have allowed firing w/o cocking the hammer. The postwar surplus Victory revolvers would fit within the timeline evah so roughly. Dependent on the accuracy of the mini-biography.

No provenance whatsoever is offered save a name, claimed to be engraved, that appears to be little more than scratched, & poorly at that, in a block style mimicking professional lettering. They couldn't even maintain spacing or a level plane.

Perhaps I'll sand off my butt, paint a few gold coats finishing w/darker and scratch in Maynard G. Krebs. As a touch of beatnik authenticity, on the side of the frame in front of the forcing cone/above the yoke, I'll add a gold set of bongo drums. On the other side two hands snapping fingers.

They should show a pic of just the barrel/sight & rib from the top. Maybe some unknown artisan was modifying Victories w/same raised rib. Obviously mine was wacked at the tip, for some reason, yet I wonder if they matched otherwise.

Thanks again for the heads-up.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

I received a couple of pictures and the checkering is quite similar though a bit different. On mine the raised platform extends completely behind the blade sight and the checkering is limited/starts on the taper.

On the RI offering the taper meets the cut-out of the blade and the checkering cuts across the cut-out. The cut-out on the rear of the blade is more sweeping instead of mimicking a target style as mine. Still it employs a tuning fork arrangement in mating w/blade sight in front. Except the muzzle hasn't been lopped off as mine.

I can't post the pics as they're 4 mb and I don't have any editing software on this 'puter. The pics tell the story better than I. The pattern is the same for the most part and if not done by the same individual they certainly tried to make them in the same style. The major difference being that mine consists of 4 squares/diamonds in rib width and the RI offering checkering is slightly larger pattern fitting three in the lateral span.

Both ribs have the lengthwise borders swoop in towards the sight, cross each other and then between the sight two more lines cross. The RI makes a spear point mine barely cross. The same finishing touch. The telltale is the awl scribe that extends on the left/right side after the checkering/border has swept in to cross. These are thin markers to start & stop the two crossed lines when hand engraving. For whatever reason the left side scribe of mine is more prominent. I can see my right side, yet not w/o the 10X loupe.

Perhaps it was common to employ thin though noticeable straight line scribes in engraving by those not as proficient in skill as a master engraver.