NC Highway Patrol "ditching" M&P357?

[Pointblank2U]

I think back when the 357 SIG first came out, the 9mm offerings weren't as good as they are today. 147 grain 9mm loads in particular had a really bad rep originally. A lot of State Highway Patrol Agencies wanted something that was said to be superior in penetrating a motor vehicle so they went with the 357 SIG.

 

[paragain]

Why an agency would pick a boutique round like 357 Sig over less expensive and just as capable 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP is beyond comprehension.

The NC HP go through issue guns like you and I go through socks. They have changed three or four times in the last 15 years, looking for the magic solution and they have the money to spend. Come here and pay the taxes and you will know what I mean!

 

[BC38]

I don't know a lot about the 357 SIG, but everything I'm reading here makes me think of the 41 magnum round.

Developed with the goal of more power in an existing platform.
Pretty successful at achieving its intended purpose.
Not widely adopted by LE - probably for the wrong reasons.
Poor ammo availability and pricing because it wasn't widely adopted.
Now relegated (or soon to be relegated) to being just a specialty "boutique" cartridge.

 

[BobbyBJr]

I know the Cabelas in Greenville, SC had lots of used M&P 357sigs at great prices last fall, but when looking at the price and availability of the ammo I passed on getting one.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

Whatever reason a government agency gives is not the real reason for whatever they do, but I do not care for 357 Sig myself.

 

[ShelbyV8]

Fastbolt, I don,t disagree with you very of oten, and read your post like the Bible. I have 2 357 sigs a Steyr M357 and a Glock 27 with 357 sig barrel. The 357 sig is no harder on a weapon than a 40 S&W. Yes it has a lot more velocity than a 40, but the inertia of 125 gr bullet is much less than a 180gr. It has a lot more muzzle blast than a 40 which some people interpret as recoil. As far as the 9 +P+ being equal, the bullet manufacturers had to develop a new bullet for the 357 sig 9 mm bullets were fragmenting. All guns I know of use the same recoil springs for 357sig an 40 S&W. I notice most people who knock the 357sig don't own one and base their opinion on the internet. Those of us who own them swear by them. I own everything from .32 to 10mm I carry the 357sig.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

... All guns I know of use the same recoil springs for 357sig an 40 S&W. I notice most people who knock the 357sig don't own one and base their opinion on the internet...

Yup. Most people who slam Glocks don't own Glocks, either.

I've had a couple of M&P Pros, sold my .40 version but absolutely love my 9mm -- best shooting 9mm I have.

The Glock 19, 23, 32, and 38 all use the same recoil spring, but the slides have different weights. (As I understand it, the recoil spring is primarily used to cycle a gun, i.e., strip the next round from the mag and chamber it, while slide weight helps control slide velocity.) The .40 and .357 SIG versions of the same gun typically share the same slide and spring assembly.

In the case of the NCHP and the .357 SIG, the problem was more than a matter of the HP wanting a change, etc. You'll notice that S&W no longer offers the M&P in .357 SIG in any form. There may have been a problem that S&W recognized, too. (You'll find it on the S&W site, but the entry is an "archive" display.)

Something may have been going on with the NCHP weapons; you don't hear a lot about function problems elsewhere. (And I'm sure that the NCHP didn't put a LOT of rounds through a lot of guns when they experienced the problems.) We may never know what the whole story was.

 

[silversport]

or maybe it just wasn't a big enough seller as several gun makers have given up on 357 SIG pistols...

Bill

 

[Granite Stater]

I was issued and carried a Sig P229 in 357 Sig for over a decade. It was very loud and had a large muzzle flash. I use to get headaches on the indoor range and went to double ear protection. I've witnessed two shootings with this caliber (Ranger & Gold dot 125 gr) and the results were nothing special, one subject had to be tasered after being shot. Our 357 sig had more breakage than our 9mm Sig we had prior. We now carry 40S&W. The FAMS I know tell me they are going to 9mm.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

or maybe it just wasn't a big enough seller as several gun makers have given up on 357 SIG pistols...

What's the difference between the .40 and the .357 SIG S&W guns? The barrel and the rollmark on the slide. Everything else, as best I can tell, is the same. The cost of offering a .357 SIG S&W couldn't be THAT great.

What S&W should have done was offered a single gun with both barrels for maybe $75 more. I bet they would have sold a BUNCH of them. That might've given S&W more incentive to figure out what wasn't working right in some guns.

 

[Maxshield]

Now that all those excessively long (and pointless) posts are out of the way...

The North Carolina Highway Patrol is, in fact, switching from the M&P .357 to the Sig 226 in .357. Saw two of them last week and they confirmed the change. I asked them why the change...they both said they honestly don't know and chalked it up to higher-ups said so. Extraction issues were news to them.

Kickbacks rule

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Kickbacks rule

Kickbacks arguably had NOTHING to do with the change. The guns just weren't working right.

As noted in my earlier post (#36), the problems first arose about three years ago. (My son is a NCHP Master Trooper, so while my info is second-hand, there are also news releases available that tells what has happened. He never had problems with his weapon while qualifying, but others did -- including some of their trainers.)

Nobody in the HP wanted to spend MORE MONEY on weapons, and you've got to spend money to get kickbacks. That's because state employees were, during those years, operating on a much-reduced budget with all state employees (including the NCHP) taking a 10% pay cut across the board. Troopers started complaining about problems in 2013 and since even senior officers must periodically qualify with their weapons, they quickly understood that the problem was more than just a training issue.

S&W sent their technicians and engineers to examine the guns and understand the problems, and fix'em. They even took guns back with them. They didn't fix the problems, and the NCHP eventually went to SIG P229's in .357 SIG. I've heard of no problems since the conversion, which was about a year ago.

.

 

[bloodlord77]

Why an agency would pick a boutique round like 357 Sig over less expensive and just as capable 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP is beyond comprehension.

Because neither of those three calibers are "just as capable".

 

[SPEEDGUNNER]

Are the NCSHP M&P pistols department marked? Would love to own one.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Are the NCSHP M&P pistols department marked? Would love to own one.

I don't remember if they were state marked. I'll ask my son when I talk with him in a day or two. Troopers were allowed to buy their personal weapon from the State (at the low, original purchase price) when they transitioned to the new SIGs, and a few troopers bought theirs. (Some of those guns were sold privately soon after for a modest profit.) The bulk, I think, were bought back by S&W.

Most of the troopers liked their S&W M&Ps, but they seem to like the SIG 229's that replaced them at least as well.

At the time I had an M&P Pro in .40 or I might've been tempted to buy my son's from him, and get a conversion barrel for .40 -- but I found that the .40 version wasn't my cup of tea. I love the 9mm version of the same gun.

.

 

[Doug M.]

Because neither of those three calibers are "just as capable".

*
That is not even arguably correct. All pistol rounds suck, generally.

All of the testing done by qualified experts like Dr. Roberts (a student of, and the heir apparent to, Dr. Fackler) shows no significant difference in performance among these 4 loads. It is possible that agencies that have adopted the .357 Sig are doing better in OIS because they are more serious about training. The biggest variable in handgun ammo performance is PLACEMENT, which is largely driven by training.

I have one pistol in .357Sig. It was an ill-advised experiment, but more reliable than the 9mm version. It is expensive and unpleasant to shoot, but fits a niche for me.

http://www.lightfighter(DOT) net/topic/service-caliber-handgun-duty-and-self-defense-ammo

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLFEAtwNj0I[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrGL8wexJdA[/ame]

 

[bloodlord77]

*
That is not even arguably correct. All pistol rounds suck, generally.

All of the testing done by qualified experts like Dr. Roberts (a student of, and the heir apparent to, Dr. Fackler) shows no significant difference in performance among these 4 loads. It is possible that agencies that have adopted the .357 Sig are doing better in OIS because they are more serious about training. The biggest variable in handgun ammo performance is PLACEMENT, which is largely driven by training.

I have one pistol in .357Sig. It was an ill-advised experiment, but more reliable than the 9mm version. It is expensive and unpleasant to shoot, but fits a niche for me.

I perform my own tests on my youtube channel HERE And in all the testing I've done, the 357 has out performed the 9, 40, and 45. It has a significant advantage when using fmj. The margin narrows slightly when using self defense ammo (hollowpoints). YMMV.

I do agree 100% on your statement on shot placement, and also feel that either of those calibers are adequate for self defense.

 

[CB3]

I perform my own tests on my youtube channel HERE And in all the testing I've done, the 357 has out performed the 9, 40, and 45. It has a significant advantage when using fmj.

"Outperformed" in ways that are critical to personal self defense, or in some test you made up that has little to no bearing on actual usefulness in self defense?

Your penetration tests are interesting and instructive, yet they do not scale well to defensive uses. They are a narrow sub segment of bullet performance that has limited relevance to the choice of a self defense caliber. .357 SIG fan boys will disagree, I know.

Here's a suggestion for another equally useful test that will show .357 SIG outperforms the other three callers: Shoot all four calibers straight up in the air and see which bullet goes higher.

Or, shoot all four as hollow points in the standardized FBI penetration tests with the standardized barriers to see which caliber exceeds the others consistently.

There is no need to do this since it has been done so many times. Self defense pistol cartridges today are designed with loading and expanding bullet performance to function within the window of FBI performance standards. They all function similarly.

Medical professionals who treat bullet wounds have made it abundantly clear that pistol bullet performance in humans is unpredictable and inconsistent except for not being as lethal as tests purport to show. They state there is little difference in wound tract effectiveness between any of the major defensive pistol caliber bullets.

The .357 SIG cartridge has had numerous opportunities to prove itself more capable than other calibers for self defense, and yet it remains a niche loading. Whatever advantages it has over other defensive calibers are apparently outweighed by its disadvantages.

The real expert is the market, and the market has spoken, no matter how few proponents of alternate calibers continue to beat their caliber wars drums.

 

[Doug M.]

And in all the testing I've done, the 357 has out performed the 9, 40, and 45. It has a significant advantage when using fmj. The margin narrows slightly when using self defense ammo (hollowpoints). YMMV.

*
Not all HP ammo is appropriate for duty/self-defense; only those that have actually been shown to meet the standard should be considered, and then only after being shown reliable by firing several hundred rounds with a malfunction in the pistol in question. There is a list in the link from LF.

FMJ? While much better than strong language and empty hands, not at all appropriate in a service caliber except for break-in and training. I would probably carry it in a .380 if I had one, but in a fighting pistol? Uh, no.

 

[bloodlord77]

*
Not all HP ammo is appropriate for duty/self-defense; only those that have actually been shown to meet the standard should be considered, and then only after being shown reliable by firing several hundred rounds with a malfunction in the pistol in question. There is a list in the link from LF.

FMJ? While much better than strong language and empty hands, not at all appropriate in a service caliber except for break-in and training. I would probably carry it in a .380 if I had one, but in a fighting pistol? Uh, no.

I agree with you 100%. The tests that I've done have been to demonstrate the penetration capabilities of the calibers tested. Hence the use of fmj projectiles. I do have a series of tests planned that will be pertinent to self defense.