Need a bunch of help ***New Pictures Posted***

[AlHunt]

I haven't seen anyone specify what pics are required. We've seen a couple different angles. I'd be interested in seeing this one run to ground and now seems to be an opportunity.

ETA: Waitaminnit - Glowe outlines it in post 18. I bet OP will be back shortly with the requested pics.

 

[mmaher94087]

I agree with glowe as I believe the number '10' has been added to the revolver butt. The serial numbers on the early #2's are small (~1/16" high) and end approximately 1/8" from the toe. This specimen doesn't display either of these features. The number on the inside of the right stock should verify the correct serial number.

 

[opoefc]

younggun22, Sorry if I ruffled your feathers - not my intent. You may have stepped into a controversy unknowingly. This "No. 10" Model 2 army has changed hands in the past, I believe, with uninformed buyers getting what they thought was a legitimate serial # 10. The gun has been known to serious students for many years, as suspect. If you check Ron Curtis's web page for Model 2 Armies, there is a dissertation on the multiple types of Model 2 engineering changes, with photos showing how to identify these changes and how they are determined. I don't have a quick way of posting the link where I am now, perhaps another Forum member can provide it. Photos of your friend's gun following the Curtis info. will give us what we need to fully estimate the guns's production point in the life of the Model 2s. The correct serial number appears in only two places on a Model 2. On the back of the right grip and on the center of the butt on 3 pin guns. Very early production ( Ser. #s 1, 2,5,6, & 7 have the serial number at the heel of the butt, stamped 90 degrees off the centerline of the bore. A good start would be to post clear photos of the assembly code stamps on # 10 and where they are found. None of your above photos show them. Ed.

 

[younggun22]

I find this all very interesting and will get as much of the requested in formation as soon as possible.

I am determined to get to the bottom of it now!


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[glowe]

I find this all very interesting and will get as much of the requested in formation as soon as possible . . .

I ran across the following information in Ron Curtis's database of Model 2 revolvers.

#10 - - 6" - - Refinished - - Re numbered Ch 5 Modified SWCA Journal vol 33#2 summer 1999.

Ron's website can be accessed here: Smith and Wesson Model 2 Army Revolver

 

[Göring's S&W]

I went ahead and took the photo of the butt of this model 2, with the dubious SN of 10, and a pic posted by breakaway500.

Note, as Mike said, the position of the numbers is not right for a 2 digit gun. The "10" is very much indented, so the point where when I duplicate the approx. spacing, a 6 digit SN fits. Note on the breakaway500 butt, there is room for 1 more digit.

The red lines are my attempt (not great) at showing how far in the "1" is for the "10". The blue lines are where the "10" would be, using the spacing and application method shown on the breakaway500 revolver. Of course, the red numbers to SN "10" are my additions to show how far in "10" really is. I used a font size similar to the "10" to keep everything scale. So basically, if the SN 10 gun were correct, among everything else wrong with it, I would expect the "10" to lead off where the added red "3" is that I placed, not where it is currently.

The font is larger for "10" as others have said, and could even be the wrong font style for these to boot, but I would need to a loop to be sure of that.

This is called boosting, and is more common on military issue guns than anything else, where an additional mark can mean a big difference.

 

[Dan M]

I am horrible with the search features but I know sometime in the past 10 years there was a discussion on this gun in this forum. Ed is right in that the then owner played games in providing info / pictures then.


Dan

 

[opoefc]

Dan, Maybe the game has gone into overtime? Ed.

 

[younggun22]

Hoping to get more pictures today


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[younggun22]

Here are the rest of the pictures lets see if we can put this to rest!

 

[glowe]

It has all the standard features of a 3 pin Model 2 with nothing out of the ordinary, except the number. S&W used assembly numbers and FF looks to be what was used on this gun. S&W never stamped both stocks and never stamped the serial number beside the assembly number, since that would be redundant. Someone who did not know how the factory built guns, obviously went over the revolver and added a lot of numbers where the did not belong. It appears that the right stock could have had a serial number near the top where the gouge is. My guess is that the original number was removed, so we will never know what the original number was.

 

[JSR III]

I think that photo number 2 pretty much solves this mystery for me. If my eyes aren't deceiving me, there is a serial number stamped into the back of the left stock panel. This to me is evidence of an attempt to make this gun number correctly.

I am willing to be corrected but my non expert opinion is as follows. Sometime in the history of this gun, an owner took the gun apart and saw that the numbers on the cylinder, frame and stocks did not match. Realizing that they did not match and that knowledgeable collectors would think this a non matching Model 2 Army decided to renumber the gun to make it all matching. Unfortunately, this owner had some knowledge but not all the facts.

The butt serial number was removed and the number found on the frame and cylinder was added. This same number was added to the stocks and now appears on the inside of both stock panels. My recollection is that S&W only ever numbered the back of the right stock panel.

The serial number 10 would certainly make the gun very desirable but the owner failed to realize that a three pin frame could not bear this low of a number.

Again I mean no disrespect to the OP and am merely expressing my thoughts based on my limited knowledge from being around S&W's for the last 47 years.

PS: After rereading my post and going back over the thread again I noticed one more pertinent detail and perhaps someone else has already commented on this. The assembly number noted in several photos on the frame, cylinder and rear of the barrel assembly is FF 10. If you notice the font of the number 1 in the FF 10 in all three locations, the top of the one is parallel to the bottom foot. The one that is stamped on the butt of the frame as the serial number and the inside of the stock panels is shaped as follows 1 with the top part of the one angled downward. This to me is even clearer evidence that someone has messed with this firearm. Luckily, it is an antique and not considered a firearm by ATF standards so we won't need to get into a sky is falling discussion about the serial number being altered and confiscation and penalties of death etc.

 

[younggun22]

Well glad we got to the bottom of it. Like I said this is not my gun and I was only asked to find out more about it. Unfortunately the piece is a consignment piece and now my friend needs to break the news to the owner...


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[glowe]

I think the most important evidence is the gouge on the inside of the right stock. Compared to my examples, I see that this gouge is in the area of where the company normally placed their serial numbers.

 

[mmaher94087]

This #2 Army isn't correct. I'd like to add an additional question: In post #30 (the latest from younggun22) and the sixth photo from the top; the right side of the revolver (shown on the left of the photo) doesn't seem to show the end of the hammer stud protruding from the frame. Why? There appears to be a hole where the stud should protrude.

 

[glowe]

The stud must be backed out. Pluss, the sideplate screw should be close to flush, but seems to protrude from the other side. Maybe just a loose hammer stud??

 

[opoefc]

As we now know for sure, the guns not right. It wasn't right ten yrs. ago when it first popped up here but we could get any answers from the owner then. Congrats to younggun22 for following through with good pictures. Ed.

 

[bcowern]

This Mosel 2 Army is currently listed for sale on the Collectors Firearms site.

Smith & Wesson № 2 Army Serial #10 for sale

Caveat emptor

Regards,

 

[gmborkovic]

I aint throwing a wrench in here, but has anyone personally handled and examined this piece? Pics are tough to work off. Best.

 

[old 1911 fan]

Yup, Feb 9th I walked into a new LGS in town having learned that they had some old Smith & Wessons. Boy did he and the S&W #10 gun was there. Knowing so little about a revolver this old I told him about this website. Yup, I held it and was admittedly in awe. The rest has been a learning experience. I did buy a pristine 36 no dash out of the dozen or so nice S&Ws that he had.

old 1911 fan