Need a bunch of help ***New Pictures Posted***

It has all the standard features of a 3 pin Model 2 with nothing out of the ordinary, except the number. S&W used assembly numbers and FF looks to be what was used on this gun. S&W never stamped both stocks and never stamped the serial number beside the assembly number, since that would be redundant. Someone who did not know how the factory built guns, obviously went over the revolver and added a lot of numbers where the did not belong. It appears that the right stock could have had a serial number near the top where the gouge is. My guess is that the original number was removed, so we will never know what the original number was.
 
I think that photo number 2 pretty much solves this mystery for me. If my eyes aren't deceiving me, there is a serial number stamped into the back of the left stock panel. This to me is evidence of an attempt to make this gun number correctly.

I am willing to be corrected but my non expert opinion is as follows. Sometime in the history of this gun, an owner took the gun apart and saw that the numbers on the cylinder, frame and stocks did not match. Realizing that they did not match and that knowledgeable collectors would think this a non matching Model 2 Army decided to renumber the gun to make it all matching. Unfortunately, this owner had some knowledge but not all the facts.

The butt serial number was removed and the number found on the frame and cylinder was added. This same number was added to the stocks and now appears on the inside of both stock panels. My recollection is that S&W only ever numbered the back of the right stock panel.

The serial number 10 would certainly make the gun very desirable but the owner failed to realize that a three pin frame could not bear this low of a number.

Again I mean no disrespect to the OP and am merely expressing my thoughts based on my limited knowledge from being around S&W's for the last 47 years.

PS: After rereading my post and going back over the thread again I noticed one more pertinent detail and perhaps someone else has already commented on this. The assembly number noted in several photos on the frame, cylinder and rear of the barrel assembly is FF 10. If you notice the font of the number 1 in the FF 10 in all three locations, the top of the one is parallel to the bottom foot. The one that is stamped on the butt of the frame as the serial number and the inside of the stock panels is shaped as follows 1 with the top part of the one angled downward. This to me is even clearer evidence that someone has messed with this firearm. Luckily, it is an antique and not considered a firearm by ATF standards so we won't need to get into a sky is falling discussion about the serial number being altered and confiscation and penalties of death etc.
 
Last edited:
Well glad we got to the bottom of it. Like I said this is not my gun and I was only asked to find out more about it. Unfortunately the piece is a consignment piece and now my friend needs to break the news to the owner...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
This #2 Army isn't correct. I'd like to add an additional question: In post #30 (the latest from younggun22) and the sixth photo from the top; the right side of the revolver (shown on the left of the photo) doesn't seem to show the end of the hammer stud protruding from the frame. Why? There appears to be a hole where the stud should protrude.
 
Yup, Feb 9th I walked into a new LGS in town having learned that they had some old Smith & Wessons. Boy did he and the S&W #10 gun was there. Knowing so little about a revolver this old I told him about this website. Yup, I held it and was admittedly in awe. The rest has been a learning experience. I did buy a pristine 36 no dash out of the dozen or so nice S&Ws that he had.

old 1911 fan
 
gmborkovic said:
I aint throwing a wrench in here, but has anyone personally handled and examined this piece? Pics are tough to work off. Best.
Click to expand...

Take a common model like a Model 1899 and put a barrel lug or a square butt on it. Does anyone need anything more than a few images to tell it was not correct and could not have left the factory in that configuration? You cannot add a feature like the 3 pin Model 2 frame to a gun that was manufactured before the improvement was even invented. Intentionally gouge out the serial number on the right stock, stamp serial numbers on parts that do not have serial numbers, or stamp serial numbers and assembly numbers on the same part, why would you do that at the factory?

As Powderman noted, bottom line is that I guess all the experts did no good convincing the seller that they owned a fraudulent gun, since it is for sale at a ridiculous price and misleading description.
 
Collectors Firearms lists a lot of guns and is posting new offerings all the time. Sometimes I see one that I think is reasonably priced, but most are at the high edge of what the gun ought to bring IMO. I would think CF would be very interested in the authenticity of their offerings because the reputation of a seller in this business is of paramount importance.

This is a great thread, one of the best I have seen on any forum.
 
gmborkovic said:
I aint throwing a wrench in here, but has anyone personally handled and examined this piece? Pics are tough to work off. Best.
Click to expand...

Mike
Pictures don't lie. "Pics are tough to work off". Not true. If a gun has features only found on later guns, what more proof do you need. Yes, a hands on examination would be wonderful, but "pics" are all we got, and "pics" in this case are all we need. Maybe this was a prototype, maybe it was a tool room gun, maybe it was the personal property of Bo Derek, (get it, 10)! Some of the people who have responded to this thread eat, sleep and breathe early Smith & Wesson. I've learned more from them than what I've read in most books. I understand your hesitation in what is being said, but, these guys are experts, I respect their conclusions. This gun ain't right!
Don Mundell
Assistant Historian
SWHF
 
Last edited:
Well, I sent an email off to the seller two weeks ago and laid out the story about the authenticity issues with the gun. Also reminded them that I had purchased quite a few guns from them over the years but got no response, not even a thanks and we will look into it. What is worse is that they have not changed a word of their description, so maybe we will be going over this gun a third time with a new owner.
 
Reply from Seller

Great news. I received an email from Collectors Firearms, responding to the email I had noted above. Happy to report that this store is a real stand-up shop that reviewed this thread and added the following comments.

It is being pulled off of our website as I type this. A full refund including the shipping was made both ways to the customer. We made an honest mistake and this gun will either be relisted and properly described, or more than likely it will go into my safe and never be on the market again

We have all sent off comments to alert sellers of mis-identified guns they are putting up for sale, but almost always ignored. Be advised that Collectors Firearms is still the quality shop I remember over the decades when I was actively purchasing antiques from them. I would gladly do business with them again without hesitation.
 
Last edited:
Thanks To All

Its amazing to realize that you are able to recognize things not correct and then point it out is very impressive. I read through this with interest so thanks for an interesting and informative subject!
 
Last edited:
As a broker of gun collections for estates, museums, etc, I have been dealing with the various auction houses over the last 50+ years and found that when I tell them they have a suspicious gun listed, and provide proof or identify the incorrect areas of the gun, they usually pull the gun from the action and notify the consignor of the situation, or correct the description to alert bidders of an incorrect gun. Sometimes the gun is owned by the auction house and they then part it out or destroy it. I have even been sent an unsolicited fee from auctions for alerting them to the situation. They are correctly protecting their reputation. The only auction house that refused to withdraw a 100% fake S&W, is Rock Island Auctions. They auctioned off a" WW2 S&W Trench gun" , a gun with fake Rock Island Armory stamps ( done expertly), even after I had the curator at the Rock Island Armory museum tell them it was a fake. The gun was a S&W Model 916 12ga pump shotgun made in the 1980s, long after WW2. A wealthy S&W collector bought the gun at the auction for $8,000, knowing it was a fake, to keep it from getting into the hands of an innocent buyer. S&W, of course, never made any trench guns for WW2, only Victory Model revolvers. Ed.
 
It's a bad penny that won't go away! It's now up for auction again at a place called Lewis & Maese Auctions in Houston, TX. Starting bid $1,500 !!! I sent them an email last week about the gun being "dubious" and asked for better photos, etc. No response. Ed. ( The auction house has now posted a "Lot Passed' notice, so perhaps they wised up.)
 
Last edited:
Looks like Model 2 Army, SN:10 is up for auction!

Interesting - hard to keep an old fake down - all about the $$ for some.
 
glowe said:
Great news. I received an email from Collectors Firearms, responding to the email I had noted above. Happy to report that this store is a real stand-up shop that reviewed this thread and added the following comments.

It is being pulled off of our website as I type this. A full refund including the shipping was made both ways to the customer. We made an honest mistake and this gun will either be relisted and properly described, or more than likely it will go into my safe and never be on the market again

We have all sent off comments to alert sellers of mis-identified guns they are putting up for sale, but almost always ignored. Be advised that Collectors Firearms is still the quality shop I remember over the decades when I was actively purchasing antiques from them. I would gladly do business with them again without hesitation.
Click to expand...

Looks like Collectors Firearms decided against keeping SN 10 off the market.

Regards
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

G
New to the Site. Please Help Identify
Replies
15
Views
773
Hondo44
H
A
A little help please.
Replies
7
Views
513
azhobo
A
C
  • Locked
WTT Colt Special Lady
Replies
0
Views
770
Company Man
C
D
A few questions on my latest project
Replies
17
Views
1K
dfariswheel
D
C
Need help with info on a 13-3 PPC gun and its Gun Smith
Replies
10
Views
705
KAC
K

Latest posts

Back
Top