need help, AR pistol OAL clarification while being a law abiding citizen

[sgtnelson84]

I have built an AR pistol with an 11.5" barrel and an SBA3 brace. It is about a 1/4 over 26" OAL. With no verticle foregrip (but I would like to add a BCM shorty), is this still classified as an AR pistol or something else? If it isn't classified as an AR pistol, what do I need to do to not have legal issues down the road.

I'm measuring from the end of the barrel to the end of the brace when fully extended.

 

[03hemi]

If it was built as a pistol with a brace, it's still a pistol no matter the barrel. But isn't the BCM shorty a vertical foregrip? If it is, now you have an SBR and better get the tax stamp for it or go with an angle foregrip of some sort.

 

[typetwelve]

If it was built as a pistol with a brace, it's still a pistol no matter the barrel. But isn't the BCM shorty a vertical foregrip? If it is, now you have an SBR and better get the tax stamp for it or go with an angle foregrip of some sort.

Yup...I dove very deep into all of this when I built an AR pistol back in 2014. OAL doesn't matter if it is a pistol, it is a pistol. Slap a buttstock on it? Bad idea, now it's a SBR. Like 03Hemi stated, a front very grip is also a no-no. I use this "hand stabilizer" here:

BCMGUNFIGHTER KAG - 1913 Picatinny Rail Version™ - Black

Now, here's the "by what I recall" part. You can take a pistol, pop on a legal rifle length barrel, and then put it buttstock on it...POW, rifle. It's still listed as a pistol, but it's legal.

It does not work the other way around. You cannot take an AR sold as a rifle and convert it to a pistol.

 

[andy52]

Considering you built the gun I'm assuming you used a stripped lower to start with if that's the case when you filled out the 4473 it would have been listed as an "other" not rifle or pistol so your pretty much free on that count. As others have said , vertical grip on the front is a no,no. Overall length doesn't matter. I'm in the process of building a .300 blackout "Honey Badger" pistol right now. I've also built 2 9mm AR pistols. I promised a member here a thread on the "Honey Badger" which I'll probably start later this week.

 

[4506517]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe putting a foregrip on any pistol makes it into an AOW.

 

[BB57]

Yup...I dove very deep into all of this when I built an AR pistol back in 2014. OAL doesn't matter if it is a pistol, it is a pistol. Slap a buttstock on it? Bad idea, now it's a SBR. Like 03Hemi stated, a front very grip is also a no-no. I use this "hand stabilizer" here:

BCMGUNFIGHTER KAG - 1913 Picatinny Rail Version™ - Black

Now, here's the "by what I recall" part. You can take a pistol, pop on a legal rifle length barrel, and then put it buttstock on it...POW, rifle. It's still listed as a pistol, but it's legal.

It does not work the other way around. You cannot take an AR sold as a rifle and convert it to a pistol.

I'll add one more wrinkle based on the information I had last time I checked.

If your "other" or "pistol" receiver has ever been assembled as a rifle, you can't legally make it back into a pistol. (It's hard to enforce that portion of the law, but legally you can't do it.)

There's also constructive intent where if you have (only) a rifle lower and a pistol upper as well as a rifle upper where it's obvious you are putting your pistol upper on your rifle lower, you're looking for trouble really, really hard.

Similarly, if you have a pistol or "other" lower and have both rifle and pistol uppers where it is obvious you are assembling both on the pistol lower (i.e. making a rifle, and then converting back to a pistol), you could find yourself in some trouble.

In other words, if you have a pistol or "other" AR lower, and multiple uppers, you'll want to have a matching upper for each lower. Legally, it ain't a Lego set where you can just mix parts s you please.

 

[03hemi]

Another wrinkle to add confusion, if it's a rifle, you can have it re-classified as a pistol with the proper form, but that isn't the case here though. "Other" is the way you wanna classify it if you build it is what I've gathered from far more knowledgeable sources than myself. Make sure to post it when your done!

 

[typetwelve]

I'll add one more wrinkle based on the information I had last time I checked.

If your "other" or "pistol" receiver has ever been assembled as a rifle, you can't legally make it back into a pistol. (It's hard to enforce that portion of the law, but legally you can't do it.)

There's also constructive intent where if you have (only) a rifle lower and a pistol upper as well as a rifle upper where it's obvious you are putting your pistol upper on your rifle lower, you're looking for trouble really, really hard.

Similarly, if you have a pistol or "other" lower and have both rifle and pistol uppers where it is obvious you are assembling both on the pistol lower (i.e. making a rifle, and then converting back to a pistol), you could find yourself in some trouble.

In other words, if you have a pistol or "other" AR lower, and multiple uppers, you'll want to have a matching upper for each lower. Legally, it ain't a Lego set where you can just mix parts s you please.

Yeah...I'm guessing people have to live under the "don't start nothin', won't be nothin' rule with this one.

When I bought my lower back in '14, I filled out the form as it being a handgun. Living in Illinois, I had to do a longer waiting period for it. I now have the proper paperwork to "prove" (take that word for what its worth) that it is a pistol.

Addressing what you said, I guess you just have to be smart about it. Could I grab my rifle lower and slap my pistol upper on it making an instant SBR? Yup...and it would take a whopping 2 min to do that. Because of this, I keep my 3 ARs completely assembled in the safe, it's the best I can do.

Hopefully, I continue to live my life in a manner that wouldn't invite any law enforcement into my home where they'd start splitting hairs in that way...hopefully.

 

[andy52]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe putting a foregrip on any pistol makes it into an AOW.

I'm not sure how your defining a "foregrip". a vertical foregrip is a no, handguard or forearm like on a Contender or Encore is fine, which could be called horizonal.

 

[andy52]

Yeah...I'm guessing people have to live under the "don't start nothin', won't be nothin' rule with this one.

When I bought my lower back in '14, I filled out the form as it being a handgun. Living in Illinois, I had to do a longer waiting period for it. I now have the proper paperwork to "prove" (take that word for what its worth) that it is a pistol.

Addressing what you said, I guess you just have to be smart about it. Could I grab my rifle lower and slap my pistol upper on it making an instant SBR? Yup...and it would take a whopping 2 min to do that. Because of this, I keep my 3 ARs completely assembled in the safe, it's the best I can do.

Hopefully, I continue to live my life in a manner that wouldn't invite any law enforcement into my home where they'd start splitting hairs in that way...hopefully.

I feel for you living in Illinois, even though I can see it from my front porch I wouldn't want to live there.
Here in Missouri when I buy a lower it's listed as an other nothing more.

 

[4506517]

I'm not sure I would push the definition of foregrip with the BATFE, but hey, if you're feeling froggy.

This is a "commonly accepted" example of a foregrip:

 

[ladder13]

A vertical grip like above would be a no no.

 

[4506517]

You know the $200 to submit a Form 1 is a very cheap alternative to Federal time and fines.

The wait for the stamp pales in comparison to doing time for breaking the law.

I have 5 SBRed lowers. It is nice not to have to worry about the configuration.

 

[typetwelve]

You know the $200 to submit a Form 1 is a very cheap alternative to Federal time and fines.

The wait for the stamp pales in comparison to doing time for breaking the law.

I have 5 SBRed lowers. It is nice not to have to worry about the configuration.

Yeah...but SBRs aren't legal in all states...you know, like Illinois*.


*It is mostly illegal...unless you want to have and maintain a C&R license and don't care about having a trust...

 

[4506517]

Wow. I had no idea SBRs were illegal in Illinois.

That's sad. Maintaining a C&R sounds like a pain.

Don't blame you a bit.

 

[BB57]

There are some practical and legal advantages to a brace equipped AR pistol versus an AR SBR.

In some states it is literally a concealed handgun permit, not a concealed weapon permit. Consequently, an AR pistol can be much more flexible as a "truck gun" than an SBR as you can carry the AR pistol loaded in a vehicle, even if you have a 16" barrel on it, where it may not be legal to carry a loaded SBR in your vehicle.

Also, to take a concealed pistol to another state, you just need a concealed carry permit that is honored in that state and you are good to go - although you still need to ensure your "handgun" and magazine are legal to possess and carry in that state. (The proposed nation concealed carry legislation would have made that simpler as anything legal in your state would be legal in the reciprocity states.)

In contrast, with an SBR you need to complete an ATF 5320.20 and get it back with an approval from ATF before you can take your SBR to another state. If that state does not allow SBRs ATF will not approve the form. You also have to specify a time frame, but the good news it can be up to 1 year in length, so you can submit 1 form each year, for each state you plan to take your SBR too. Still, it's a lot more complicated and a bit more limited that taking a pistol to another state.

And of course you have to pay $200 and wait a year or so to get approval to buy or convert an SBR, where in many states, your concealed carry permit also serves a pistol permit and you can walk out the door pistol in hand after about 5 minutes of paperwork.

 

[TheWaterboy]

Lots of opinions not a lot of sources. Throw it on there and rock it. Here is a factory pistol with a not vertical grip. It's cool as long as its 89.999999° 90° is a no go.

 

[TheWaterboy]

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