Need help on short barrel N frame rarity & value.

[JimSupica]

I'm sorting through a very nice collection of S&W's, and have come across some N frames in what I believe are scarce barrel length configurations.

* Model 1950 .45 Target (Pre-Mod. 26) , s/n S93927. Four inch (4") barrel. The barrel is numbered to the gun, and markings appear properly centered for this barrel length.

* .44 HE 4th Model; Model 1950 .44 Target (Pre-Mod. 24), s/n S145289. Four inch (4") barrel. The barrel is numbered to the gun, and markings appear properly centered for this barrel length.

* .38/44 Outdoorsman (Pre-Mod. 23), s/n S78807. Four inch (4") barrel. Although the crown & front sight look ok to me, the barrel markings are not centered, but are more towards the muzzle.

* 1950 .45 Target Model (Pre-Mod26), s/n S146752. Five inch (5") barrel. Barrel markings off center towards the muzzle (about the correct spacing for a standard 6.5" barrel). Again, front sight ramp and muzzle crown look correct.

Due to the spacing of the barrel markings, the last two may have expertly shortened barrels, and so may very well not be factory original.

However, my primary question is for each gun, IF it is factory original, how rare is that barrel length, and what sort of value should each gun bring if the barrel length is original (assuming excellent 98% condition)?

A secondary question would be, is there any possibility that the off-center marked barrels MIGHT be factory original? I guess I'm asking if it's possible the factory shortened an existing barrel leaving the markings intact, or if that would be highly unlikely.

Any opinions would be most appreciated. -- Jim

 

[JimSupica]

I'm sorting through a very nice collection of S&W's, and have come across some N frames in what I believe are scarce barrel length configurations.

* Model 1950 .45 Target (Pre-Mod. 26) , s/n S93927. Four inch (4") barrel. The barrel is numbered to the gun, and markings appear properly centered for this barrel length.

* .44 HE 4th Model; Model 1950 .44 Target (Pre-Mod. 24), s/n S145289. Four inch (4") barrel. The barrel is numbered to the gun, and markings appear properly centered for this barrel length.

* .38/44 Outdoorsman (Pre-Mod. 23), s/n S78807. Four inch (4") barrel. Although the crown & front sight look ok to me, the barrel markings are not centered, but are more towards the muzzle.

* 1950 .45 Target Model (Pre-Mod26), s/n S146752. Five inch (5") barrel. Barrel markings off center towards the muzzle (about the correct spacing for a standard 6.5" barrel). Again, front sight ramp and muzzle crown look correct.

Due to the spacing of the barrel markings, the last two may have expertly shortened barrels, and so may very well not be factory original.

However, my primary question is for each gun, IF it is factory original, how rare is that barrel length, and what sort of value should each gun bring if the barrel length is original (assuming excellent 98% condition)?

A secondary question would be, is there any possibility that the off-center marked barrels MIGHT be factory original? I guess I'm asking if it's possible the factory shortened an existing barrel leaving the markings intact, or if that would be highly unlikely.

Any opinions would be most appreciated. -- Jim

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Jim;

If you haven't already done so, you might want to add this thread in the post war revolver section also. I imagine a few of those guys would have some input. Cheers!

 

[tennexplorer]

The four inch barrel is rare. I am not expert enough to give values; the comment I will make is that among the leading dealers, prices for a four inch seem to be at least double that of a comparable condition 6 and one-half. However, I do have .44 Special Model 1950's that are factory in both four inch and five inch and would be happy to send photos of them if that would help you.

I have never seen a .45 Model 1950 with a four inch barrel. I have a four inch Model 1955 that I swear is original but letters as a six and one-half. I think the .45 in four inch is exceedingly rare and may disappoint you by lettering as a six and one-half inch simply because of that rarity.

Number three and four sound like the barrels have been shortened. May have been done at the factory though.

 

[clang444]

The markings on the 6.5" barrel of my pre-26 Model of 1950 .45acp Target are not centered and are much closer to the cylinder than the muzzle. If the barrel were cut to 4", it would be almost centered. It's an early SN gun.

If I had to guess, someone really liked 4" barrelled guns and sent his off to be shortened. Who knows, maybe they even went back to S&W????

 

[mikepriwer]

Jim

The first thought that occurs to me is - as a former S&WCA President - why don't you letter them ?
As opposed to quering this membership ?!

I've owned the following targets, which all lettered properly:

S140758 4" 1950 .44
S144140 5" 1950 .44
S146495 5" 1950 .45

S85899 4" factory-shortened 38/44 (this one I still own)

I also had two K400,000 -range model 14's that were AF PG guns, that were factory shortened,
from 6" to 4" . In this case, the barrels, which were originally not numbered, were numbered
at the time of shortening !

From my experience, its not possible to tell, based on the position of the roll-markings,
what the original barrel length was. I've seen factory 4" and 6" targets, with the barrel
roll marking in exactly the same place.

I don't have to tell you this, but the nice thing about a letter is that if they are right,
they right, and if not, then they are not. I know its fun to second-guess the historian,
but --- !!!

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[JimSupica]

Thanks to all, I appreciate the insights & assistance.

Originally posted by mikepriwer:
why don't you letter them ?

Mike, I always try to letter unusual guns when time allows. Like you, I think it's a wonderful service, and certainly the best bargain in gun collecting.

I'm not asking the forum to validate the authenticity of these pieces.

My questions to the forum are primarily value and relative rarity, and secondarily past experience with observed markings on non-standard barrel lengths.

Those are subjects generally outside the scope of a factory letter, but about which the many expert collectors participating in the forums (such as yourself) would probably have valuable insight. I really appreciate the help!

Jim

 

[Doc44]

Jim...I have the serial numbers of the eight 5-inch 1950 Target 45s that were sent to H. H. Harris in August 1960...the serial number range is S146495 to S146541. Each of the eight had walnut target stocks without the relieved area on the left panel and a ramp front sight blade. A single revolver shipped to Paul Jaeger has serial number S146525 and was engraved and inlaid with gold by Kurt Jaeger. Your revolver is close to these and may be correct, but like Mike said, the only way to know is to letter them. If your 1950 Target 45 is correct it is the tenth one known, I believe. I have seen two of the nine guns I listed above. I would value this gun at a minimum of $7,500.

I have never seen a 1950 Target 45 with a 4-inch barrel, but I have heard they exist. If correct, I would value this gun at $4,500.

These guns would be worth even more, but the 45 caliber guns don't seem to have the appeal of the 44 caliber revolvers.

Bill

 

[JimSupica]

Thanks Bill, that's a great help, especially on the relative rarity. I notice that Mike's gun is also on your list of 5" 1950 Target 45s, very neat.

I failed to mention the 5" 1950 Target .45 is in .45 Colt. It's in a 2 pc. maroon box w/ the s/n and "COLT" grease penciled on the bottom, right side barrel marked "45 COLT CTG". It also has two pins holding on the front sight base.

Jim

 

[tennexplorer]

Originally posted by JimSupica:
I failed to mention the 5" 1950 Target .45 is in .45 Colt. It's in a 2 pc. maroon box w/ the s/n and "COLT" grease penciled on the bottom, right side barrel marked "45 COLT CTG". It also has two pins holding on the front sight base.

Jim

That would make it much more likely that it is a factory job.

 

[cxm]

Jim,

I have a 4" post war Outdoorsman, if you wish I can take pics of the barrel markings for you.

It looks a lot like a M28 in general.

FWIW

Chuck

Originally posted by JimSupica:
I'm sorting through a very nice collection of S&W's, and have come across some N frames in what I believe are scarce barrel length configurations.

* Model 1950 .45 Target (Pre-Mod. 26) , s/n S93927. Four inch (4") barrel. The barrel is numbered to the gun, and markings appear properly centered for this barrel length.

* .44 HE 4th Model; Model 1950 .44 Target (Pre-Mod. 24), s/n S145289. Four inch (4") barrel. The barrel is numbered to the gun, and markings appear properly centered for this barrel length.

* .38/44 Outdoorsman (Pre-Mod. 23), s/n S78807. Four inch (4") barrel. Although the crown & front sight look ok to me, the barrel markings are not centered, but are more towards the muzzle.

* 1950 .45 Target Model (Pre-Mod26), s/n S146752. Five inch (5") barrel. Barrel markings off center towards the muzzle (about the correct spacing for a standard 6.5" barrel). Again, front sight ramp and muzzle crown look correct.

Due to the spacing of the barrel markings, the last two may have expertly shortened barrels, and so may very well not be factory original.

However, my primary question is for each gun, IF it is factory original, how rare is that barrel length, and what sort of value should each gun bring if the barrel length is original (assuming excellent 98% condition)?

A secondary question would be, is there any possibility that the off-center marked barrels MIGHT be factory original? I guess I'm asking if it's possible the factory shortened an existing barrel leaving the markings intact, or if that would be highly unlikely.

Any opinions would be most appreciated. -- Jim

 

[Doc44]

Jim...Assuming the 5-inch is ALL correct then I would value it at $12,500 or more

.

Bill

 

[max]

Tell you what Jim, I don't understand all of these numbers and such, but I will give you $500 for all of them if you pay the shipping. Max

 

[Onomea]

Max, whatta guy!!

 

[Pistol Toter]

Boy! I don't know beans from applebutter about this. But is certianly a most interesting thread. I'm gonna sit back and watch.

 

[Rikkn]

Jim, I think what you need to do is carefully package them , and send them to me so they have a good home. I will get letters for them, and let you know what Roy says.

 

[glypnir]

Jim, if I find one of those in a pawnshop somewhere, I think I'll let you sell it for me.

Or maybe my wife will get one as a legal fee.

 

[DHENRY]

Jim,
For what it's worth, I measured the following rollstamps on the left sides ('SMITH & WESSON') of three 6-1/2" barrels.
1) M 1950 .45 Target 2-1/2" from crown, 1-1/2" from front
of frame.
2) Transitional 38/44 OD 3" from crown, 1-1/16" from front
of frame.
3) M 1950 38/44 OD 2-7/8" from crown, 1-1/4" from front
of frame.

All original 6-1/2" barrels. Smith & Wesson's definition of 'centering' is a matter of who's doing the 'centering'.
Hope it's of some help in your detective work!
Don # 1702

 

[Jellybean]

Here is a Model of 1950 in .45ACP. The barrel has obviously been shortened (just under 4") and the lettering is now fairly centered. I've always wondered about that. SN# S855XX