Have a MP/mod10/12 that I need to get some info on.. serial hard to read... think it is 811158 first letter could be a "B"... last could be a 6... has English proof marks and England stamped on it.. its a hand ejector says 38 S&W special ctg no laynard ring but looks to be a pressure installed plug (retaining pin hole it there in grip) barrel is 4" sights are fixed lots of screws...4 screws in what apears to be side plate, one screw in front of trigger guard, one screw in front of grip frame.... any help with this would be great...
need help
- Thread starter SMSlocum
- Start date
OFT II
US Veteran
It sounds like a British service revolver. Most of them had five inch barrels. Can you post some photos of it? They will help the experts here that know a lot more about them than I do.
Oh,and welcome to the forum.
Oh,and welcome to the forum.
DWalt
Member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 36,645
- Reaction score
- 33,862
- City & State/Province
- South Texas & San Antonio
You very likely have a pre-Victory M&P model from around the Autumn of 1941 by its serial number. I am assuming that there is no letter (V) prefix to the serial number stamped on the butt. The same serial number should be stamped under the barrel and on the rear face of the cylinder. Are you sure the barrel is stamped "38 S&W Special CTG"? Or is it ".38 S&W CTG"? That is an important distinction. If the latter, it was one made for the British military, and with the British stampings, that is probably the case. It should have a 5" barrel, not 4". A picture or two would help.
Last edited:
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
With the apparent British commercial proof stampings, you definitely have a WW II-era M&P of some sort. But a few things need to be clarified.
Is the 811158 from the bottom of the butt/grip, and is there a V in front? It would normally be on the other side of the lanyard plug.
Is the “38 S&W SPECIAL CTG” stamped on the barrel, and is the barrel 4 or 5 inches long measured from the cylinder?
Is there a US PROPERTY stamp on the topstrap above the cylinder?
PS: Wth the British proof marks, we can already say that it definitely was NOT a WW II bring-back, as those guns were submitted to be proofed after the war by commercial companies wishing to sell or export surplus guns, as required by British law.
Is the 811158 from the bottom of the butt/grip, and is there a V in front? It would normally be on the other side of the lanyard plug.
Is the “38 S&W SPECIAL CTG” stamped on the barrel, and is the barrel 4 or 5 inches long measured from the cylinder?
Is there a US PROPERTY stamp on the topstrap above the cylinder?
PS: Wth the British proof marks, we can already say that it definitely was NOT a WW II bring-back, as those guns were submitted to be proofed after the war by commercial companies wishing to sell or export surplus guns, as required by British law.
Last edited:
What you have is a Lend Lease pre victory model. When we were supplying the British prior to our entry to WWII with Lend Lease arms, they requested this revolver in 38 S&W caliber with a 200 grain bullet. It most likely has a 5" barrel. Be careful because .38 special shouldn't go all the way into the cylinder unless the cylinder has been reamed out. The .38 bullet is .357" in diameter while the .38 S&W is .361". If the cylinder on your revolver has been reamed, the .38 Special cases will swell when fired and accuracy won't be very good due to the smaller bullet. In 1942 we began sending the Victory model with the V prefix in the serial number, plain walnut grips and a lanyard ring affixed to the bottom of the grip. These were sent throughout the commonwealth and many kept in England. Those kept in England will have British proof marks. I suspect your revolver had a lanyard ring at one time and probably removed by a previous owner.
Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Can you post some pictures of the gun? If so, take one with the cylinder open where we can see into the chambers. There will be a shoulder in each chamber and a reamed chamber will have a rough area or 1st shoulder before the 2nd shoulder closer to the front of the cylinder. Also, the barrel length is measured from the front of the cylinder to the muzzle.
Targets Guy
US Veteran
A picture truly is worth a 1,000 words. I show a 802544 shipping 7/41 and 813055 shipping 8/41.
This 5" barrel is 765111 and it shipped 4/41
This 5" barrel is 765111 and it shipped 4/41
DWalt
Member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 36,645
- Reaction score
- 33,862
- City & State/Province
- South Texas & San Antonio
It is probably not an "official" Lend-Lease gun as its SN is slightly early for that. If it has a "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" topstrap stamping, it is Lend-Lease; without one, probably not. While the Lend-Lease Act passed congress and was enacted earlier in 1941, it took awhile for it to take effect. It really does not make that much difference. The main consideration is whether the chambers have been altered to accept .38 Special ammunition or not. A great many were, and that renders it a shooter rather than being a possible collector item.
At that serial number, it would have either no prefix at all (so-called "pre-Victory") or it would have the SV prefix. By 811xxx postwar guns would definitely not have a simple V. And it is highly unlikely it is a postwar gun if it was originally chambered for the .38 S&W. I have never seen an SV gun so chambered. So we are safe to assume it has no prefix.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Yes, except he appears unsure of the 8 as first digit. The B he mentions is obviously out, but it wouldn’t be the first time a 5 or 6 has been misread
As far as everybody else is concerned, the OP would have to be wrong on both the 4” barrel length and the caliber for this to be a Lend-lease BSR. He could be, but definite statements should probably wait until we’ve seen more.
Last edited:
THANKS!!!
OK... let me clarify.... yes it is 4" barrel measured it twice... no there is no prefix and no other serial anywhere, other then the assembly numbers.... yes the caliber says 38 S&W Special.... Yes it has English proofs and a ENGLAND stamp on it... grips are very rough... will try to post some picts... they are on my phone not pc.. so figuring out how to get them here.... not tech savy.....seems to be a should of sorts in the cylinder chambers... 38 colt too big, 38 S&W round only part ways goes in, I don't have any 38spl to check it right now lol will remedy this soon.... so... any clue as to manufacture date if the first is an 8?
OK... let me clarify.... yes it is 4" barrel measured it twice... no there is no prefix and no other serial anywhere, other then the assembly numbers.... yes the caliber says 38 S&W Special.... Yes it has English proofs and a ENGLAND stamp on it... grips are very rough... will try to post some picts... they are on my phone not pc.. so figuring out how to get them here.... not tech savy.....seems to be a should of sorts in the cylinder chambers... 38 colt too big, 38 S&W round only part ways goes in, I don't have any 38spl to check it right now lol will remedy this soon.... so... any clue as to manufacture date if the first is an 8?
So we are back to not having any idea what it is . . . 
SMSlocum
See if you can get some help posting pictures, please.
SMSlocum
See if you can get some help posting pictures, please.
also no us prop stamping.. the 38 S7W special Ctg is stamped on barrel no where else... only other markings are the manufacture markings top of barrel Smith and Wesson on left side of barrel 811158 i think is ser....
each cylinder is stamped with English crown and cylinder bottom stamped ENGLAND...
each cylinder is stamped with English crown and cylinder bottom stamped ENGLAND...
DWalt
Member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 36,645
- Reaction score
- 33,862
- City & State/Province
- South Texas & San Antonio
Mid-1941. I am unclear about your statements regarding ammunition. What is .38 Colt? What you need to do is to see if a .38 Special case or loaded round can be completely inserted into a chamber. If a .38 S&W round cannot be inserted, then it is probably chambered in .38 Special. as the barrel says. It could possibly be a civilian .38 Special M&P bought by the British as some were in the pre-Lend-Lease days. It is also possible that a 4" barrel could be original. Do serial numbers match (barrel, cylinder, and butt)? If there are no SNs on the barrel and cylinder, as you imply, that would be extremely odd and suspicious. Look to see if there is a SN on the back side of the extractor star.
Last edited:
I guess there is no reason to think a 4" .38 Special revolver couldn't have ended up in England during that early war period. It would be unusual but not impossible. Sure would like to see photos.
Last edited:
If you have a smartphone, get the free app Tapatalk. Posting pictures is a breeze with it.
Ok, you've convinced me it is a .38 Special. Should be SNs under the barrel on the ejector rod flat, on cylinder face, on yoke arm (look through a chamber to see), behind the ejector star and inside the right grip panel. If these all match, it is as originally configured. We did send some .38 Specials to the Commonwealth.
Ok, you've convinced me it is a .38 Special. Should be SNs under the barrel on the ejector rod flat, on cylinder face, on yoke arm (look through a chamber to see), behind the ejector star and inside the right grip panel. If these all match, it is as originally configured. We did send some .38 Specials to the Commonwealth.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Standard .38 Special revolvers did indeed go to Britain. Pate has a photo of one of the USNCPC guns from 1941 in the 740-range with British stampings. The absence of the property stamp is to be expected as the low 8’s are a bit early for Lend-lease anyway. It could have made it to Britain in all kinds of ways, even as a civilian donation (we just talked about that in another thread), but the plugged lanyard hole indicates it was an agency gun of some sort.
With no serial on the barrel, it would have to be a replacement. In that case, the cylinder holds the answers. If a 38 S&W does not fit, but the cylinder number matches the butt, it still was sn original .38 Special. With a mismatched cylinder, the frame could be either, and it would be a total parts gun.
With no serial on the barrel, it would have to be a replacement. In that case, the cylinder holds the answers. If a 38 S&W does not fit, but the cylinder number matches the butt, it still was sn original .38 Special. With a mismatched cylinder, the frame could be either, and it would be a total parts gun.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Flat area underneath when you have the cylinder out.
Attachments
DWalt
Member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 36,645
- Reaction score
- 33,862
- City & State/Province
- South Texas & San Antonio
I strongly suspect that if there is no barrel SN, it is a .38 S&W BSR with a replacement .38 Special barrel. But we still don't know for sure if the .38 S&W chambers have been lengthened for .38 Special or not, or if the gun was perhaps originally a .38 Special.
OFT II
US Veteran
After the fall of France the British asked Americans to send guns for the defense of England against invasion. It's possible that this is one of the donated firearms.
codenamedave
Member
Posting pics for SMSlocum.
Please don't use the colors in these pics to make any judgments on originality of finish or whatever, I fiddled with them to try and bring out the details of the markings. I know the pic of the butt serial isn't really helpful, but you can kinda see where the hole for the lanyard ring was filled, maybe SMSlocum can advise on what's stamped where you'd expect the "V" to be. Star, maybe?
Please don't use the colors in these pics to make any judgments on originality of finish or whatever, I fiddled with them to try and bring out the details of the markings. I know the pic of the butt serial isn't really helpful, but you can kinda see where the hole for the lanyard ring was filled, maybe SMSlocum can advise on what's stamped where you'd expect the "V" to be. Star, maybe?
codenamedave
Member
No problem.
In the shot of the rear of the cylinder, the charge hole at 4 o'clock looks like it might have a second shoulder, but I'm guessing that's just a refection, because I doubt even a drunk Bubba wouldn't just ream out one hole. The others look like Special chambers.
So is the serial on the underside of the barrel?
You said the ones on the butt and cylinder match, so it looks like 377756? Seems strangely skewed at the end, maybe a trick of the light.
Is that a star on the other side of the lanyard hole on the butt?
No Vs or Ps stamped anywhere?
ETA: I thought we had dismissed the 811158 as an assembly number, but that wouldn't be on the rear face of the cylinder, so maybe that is the right serial. The last digit looks more like a 6 to me, not that that makes any difference in the time line.
In the shot of the rear of the cylinder, the charge hole at 4 o'clock looks like it might have a second shoulder, but I'm guessing that's just a refection, because I doubt even a drunk Bubba wouldn't just ream out one hole. The others look like Special chambers.
So is the serial on the underside of the barrel?
You said the ones on the butt and cylinder match, so it looks like 377756? Seems strangely skewed at the end, maybe a trick of the light.
Is that a star on the other side of the lanyard hole on the butt?
No Vs or Ps stamped anywhere?
ETA: I thought we had dismissed the 811158 as an assembly number, but that wouldn't be on the rear face of the cylinder, so maybe that is the right serial. The last digit looks more like a 6 to me, not that that makes any difference in the time line.
Last edited:
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
Help identifying a Performance Center 4006 / Shorty Forty PCS0241- Latest: birddoghunter78
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
