need help

[Wiregrassguy]

I believe the SN is 871756, not that that changes anything. Does it appear to anyone else that the cylinder chambers have been sleeved? My guess is it started as a pre-victory BSR but had the cylinder sleeved for .38 Special and the barrel replaced.

 

[SMSlocum]

any help is great.. any idea as to manufacture dates from serial? thanks all... if it was not originally a special can it be returned to original specs?

 

[Texas Star]

Posting pics for SMSlocum.

Please don't use the colors in these pics to make any judgments on originality of finish or whatever, I fiddled with them to try and bring out the details of the markings. I know the pic of the butt serial isn't really helpful, but you can kinda see where the hole for the lanyard ring was filled, maybe SMSlocum can advise on what's stamped where you'd expect the "V" to be. Star, maybe?

In the poor pictures, it looks like a normal Victory Model as supplied to US forces after about April, 1942. Could have just been in the UK and was sold off after the war. May not have been in British service, but somehow acquired by someone in Britain who had to surrender it in a gun amnesty or whatever.

BTW, before Lend-Lease took effect, those guns were BOUGHT by the British, not given to them by the US. And barrels of four, five, and six inches were furnished. Five inches wasn't standardized until April, 1942, when the dull gray finish and smooth stocks replaced blued finish and checkered stocks with silver S&W monogram.

This gun looks to be in rough condition. I wouldn't buy it. Some may pay as much as $200 for what they call a "truck gun." It's in too poor shape to interest a collector.

The way the OP uses English suggests that he isn't American. I don't know the value of this gun where he lives. But if he can buy a newer S&W .38 Special in nicer condition, I'd do that.

 

[SMSlocum]

Not American? LOL Well as I was Born In Nebraska and Live In Missouri guess I'd have to be... Not writing an essay just getting info to those who requested it.. as for its condition.. its not pristine.. it has seen lots of use... it is in the condition that I originally purchased it ten years ago... just finally getting around to finding out more about it. Thanks for your thoughts. Not particularly interested in this as a carry weapon... more for its history. I have plenty other carry weapons.

 

[Texas Star]

A picture truly is worth a 1,000 words. I show a 802544 shipping 7/41 and 813055 shipping 8/41.

This 5" barrel is 765111 and it shipped 4/41

Better note that your stocks aren't original. Many here need to learn that.

And some have made posts with incorrect or incomplete info. That happens every time we discuss these supposed BSR's.

 

[SMSlocum]

I figured the grips where not original to the weapon.. but they were on it when I got it so haven't changed them yet. wanted to get more info on what its original specs where before I started tinkering with it .

 

[DWalt]

871756 would put its most likely shipment in late 1941, November of December. It would almost certainly have been a BSR as that was about all S&W was making at that time. It is possible it could have been Lend-Lease in late 1941 (see my #9 above). I can't tell much from the picture of the chambers regarding if it is a .38 S&W converted to .38 Special or not. The grips on it appear to be modified versions of the later Victory smooth wood grips. Most of the pre-Victories made until early 1942 were equipped with checkered wood grips with the smaller silver medallions. I can make out what seems to be the plugged lanyard swivel hole in the butt. Those are usually held in place by a crosspin, don't know about this one.

 

[Absalom]

..... Does it appear to anyone else that the cylinder chambers have been sleeved? My guess is it started as a pre-victory BSR but had the cylinder sleeved for .38 Special and the barrel replaced.

Based on the cylinder face picture, there is no doubt that Guy is right. This is a BSR that had a .38 Special barrel installed and the cylinder sleeved. The sleeves are clearly visible on all chambers.

 

[SMSlocum]

are grips like the original checkered still available? BSR? British Service Revolver? would it have been shipped in 38spcl? is there a way to check? seems that the lanyard hole has been pressure plugged and then filed off... hole is there but not sure how I would remove it other then drilling it.... didn't want to do that if it didn't originally have the lanyard... anyway to find out?

 

[SMSlocum]

are correct barrels available and can the sleeves be removed? would like to restore it to factory spec if economical and wont damage the weapon.

 

[Absalom]

are correct barrels available and can the sleeves be removed? would like to restore it to factory spec if economical and wont damage the weapon.

Not realistic. Quite apart from the feasibility, for the money you’d have to sink into that project, you can buy a nice all-original BSR and keep this one as a shooter; it should do nicely for that.

 

[Absalom]

To go into a bit more detail:

I believe “unsleeving” the cylinder is not an option since fitting the sleeves requires some reaming, so you can’t just remove the sleeves and have the original cylinder back.

So you’d need to buy a replacement cylinder, a 5” barrel, new stocks (the checkered style that a 811-range gun would have had are pricey) and the swivel. That’s hundreds of dollars. Add gunsmith services; a proper barrel replacement is not a DIY job. Finally, you’d need a complete refinish in pre-war blue. You’d be well north of 500. And you would have a Frankengun with no collector value; only the frame would be left from the original. So unless the frame is part of a cherished family heirloom, it really does not compute.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

BTW, before Lend-Lease took effect, those guns were BOUGHT by the British, not given to them by the US.

I suppose one could say that. It is my understanding that S&W made the British Service Revolvers for the Commonwealth as compensation for failing to deliver on a 9mm Light Rifle. I think the Brits had already paid over $1 million for the rifle. I also believe the Brits bought handguns off the open market.

SMSlocum, I agree with Absalom that restoring that BSR is not a project worth undertaking. Now if I wanted a BSR on that frame, I'd just buy a .38 S&W cylinder and barrel on ebay. Keep in mind that these are not drop-in parts. Like Absalom says, too much money invested for a Frankengun.

 

[Absalom]

I suppose one could say that. It is my understanding that S&W made the British Service Revolvers for the Commonwealth as compensation for failing to deliver on a 9mm Light Rifle. I think the Brits had already paid over $1 million for the rifle.....

I think at that serial it’s likely a toss-up whether it was still part of the pay-off for the rifle or had to be purchased. At the going rate of about $20 per revolver, a million covers 50,000 guns. Starting in the very high 600-range, S&W exceeded that number of BSRs long before Lend-Lease started being officially applied to revolvers.

 

[JP@AK]

BTW, before Lend-Lease took effect, those guns were BOUGHT by the British, not given to them by the US.

Yes. The company was working off the $1M the UK advanced them for designing and producing a battle machine gun of which the prototype was not accepted. So an agreement was entered to provide revolvers instead. By the time that arrangement was satisfied, the Lend Lease Act had been signed and additional BSRs were delivered under the Act.

And barrels of four, five, and six inches were furnished. Five inches wasn't standardized until April, 1942, when the dull gray finish and smooth stocks replaced blued finish and checkered stocks with silver S&W monogram.

I've seen this statement before and it confuses me. I'm pretty sure I read in Pate that the 5" was standardized in the autumn of 1941. That, of course, would not mean that all BSRs shipped before April of the following year were 5" guns, since there would almost certainly have been some overlap. Is my memory incorrect? I haven't read Pate for some time. If you can clear this up for me, I'd be grateful.

 

[JP@AK]

I had not seen posts #43 and #44 when I wrote #45. I think there is a bit of a knowledge gap here - the whole story hasn't been discovered so far as I know. It is a certainty that some of the early BSRs were paid for through the $1M advance. It may not have been all of them, however. Perhaps part of the arrangement was for the UK to eat some of the $1M for the design work, etc. It would be nice to have the entire story at some point. I wonder if all the paperwork still exists.

 

[Absalom]

.....
I've seen this statement before and it confuses me. I'm pretty sure I read in Pate that the 5" was standardized in the autumn of 1941. That, of course, would not mean that all BSRs shipped before April of the following year were 5" guns, since there would almost certainly have been some overlap. Is my memory incorrect? I haven't read Pate for some time. If you can clear this up for me, I'd be grateful.

I hope Charles Pate will forgive me for what may push the boundary between “quote” and copyright, but my thumb isn‘t up to summarizing all these dates and numbers, so here is a cellphone snip of the part of his chart that answers your query.

Note that these appear to be the contract dates, not the shipping dates, which spread out over the (occasionally several) months following the dates.

In case of the Colt 38-200s that Pate lists on a similar chart, we were able to establish with the Colt archivist that of the 49,764 guns listed by Pate and assumed by collectors to be the number in existence, only 18,251 ever shipped.

 

[Targets Guy]

SM, I had a very similar situation a couple of years ago when I was two years younger and more stupid than I am now.

I bought this gun thinking it was a 4" Victory which had been chromed.



Well it had been but it started life as a 5" BSR .38SW. It addition to being chromed, the cylinder had been reamed and the barrel had be change out to a 4" .38 special.

When I shot it with the .38 specials the brass did this


which I did not like.

When I shot it with .38SW the forcing cone started trimming lead from the bullet; I didn't like that either.

So I bought a Victory 5" SW barrel and had my gunsmith chrome it (cost me $75.00)



and replace the barrel.

So now I have a .38SW 5" BSR much like it was made (except the cylinder is still reamed and it is chrome rather than the blue it was shipped as.





It shoots just fine with no burst brass and trimmed lead

 

[shouldazagged]

SMSlocum, I have no information to give you; but I can assure that most of us here believe there are no dumb questions, and that content is more important than writing style.

I hope you'll stick aroujnd.

 

[codenamedave]

Sorry I faded away for a couple days there.

Here's a shot showing the factory hole for the lanyard loop retaining pin, and the pressed-in plug.

Don't know if it helps, but here's another view of the cylinder pic.

I'm glad some folks around here know what they're lookin at, I didn't realize the cylinder had been sleeved.

 

[Absalom]

.....
I'm glad some folks around here know what they're lookin at, I didn't realize the cylinder had been sleeved.

Look at the attached enlarged snip. I highlighted and pointed out where you can see the rims of the sleeves particularly clearly. Unless those are all printed impressions from the cartridge rim (they could be, your photo's resolution is not enough to say with absolute certainty).

 

[DWalt]

It's somewhat surprising that someone would go to the bother and expense of sleeving the chambers and replacing the barrel, most probably during the time period when anyone could buy a good used .38 Special M&P for no more than $40-$50.

 

[codenamedave]

Look at the attached enlarged snip. I highlighted and pointed out where you can see the rims of the sleeves particularly clearly. Unless those are all printed impressions from the cartridge rim (they could be, your photo's resolution is not enough to say with absolute certainty).

FTR they're not my photos, I did my best fiddlin' with what SMSlocum sent me. But yeah, I see what you're talking about.

If anybody wants to see the original pics as sent, you can email me through the site and I'll forward them.


Dang, errbody gettin suspended round here!