Need sight info for a chopped model 10

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Good morning! I bought a heavy barrel, round butt model 10-8 on Gunbroker for $283 plus shipping. The gun even came with a Tyler-T adapter. My goal is to have my gunsmith chop the barrel to 3" and remove the markings on the side of the barrel. I want a night sight dovetailed into the barrel which will allow me windage adjustment. My question is, what height sight do I need? Does the change from a 4" barrel to a 3" barrel require a different height sight? Also, I believe the factory barrels were regulated for 158gr bullets. I plan on shooting 120-125gr. I would like to factor that into the mix as well.

My gunsmith has swapped barrels on 2 pinned S&W guns for me, and did an action job on a 3rd but I think I'd like to have an idea of the sight before I ask him as I'm sure most of his work is related to semiautomatic pistols and AR platforms.

Thanks in advance.
 

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Off the bat I don't know what the sight dimensions should be but how I would approach the situation is after the barrel is cut I'd actually tape on temporary plastic or cardboard sights to take a few test shots with. After finding out what height works, then you will know what to look for. While the temporary sights won't last very long, they should be adequate for enough shots to figure things out. Obviously, use the loads you would be normally shooting.
 
Night sights mean you can't really file the front sight to fit with your load so you have to get it right the first time.
If it were me, I'd be very tempted to cut and crown the bbl, then roughen a small pad on the top and build a little pad of JB-weld or similar, then file it to fit until I get the right POI at the preferred distance for my desired load. Then you measure that, knock it off, and cut the dovetail for the chosen sight.
I've even used a sight made of a matchstick and scotch tape to dummy up a front sight before committing to it.
 
No real formula. Maybe for ball park, but it only takes you so far.

First of all changing the bullet weight and load chances point of impact.

More recoil the higher the point of impact as gun pivots up
Lighter faster bullets have less barrel time so they leave the muzzle sooner than heavier or slower bullet and then strike lower.

A shorter barrel should take a bit less sight as bullet will leave barrel sooner while barrel is lower.

Then there is the individual firing the gun and even the grip. I have huge hands and wrists. Most fix sight guns strike quite low for me.

If it were mine I would do some form of temporary sight if I wanted to get it just right. The JB weld idea is good, or make the slot and machine an aluminum sight, go to the range with a file and a black marker.
 
Thanks gents. Sounds like I should have the dovetail cut and I should try a front sight blank which is tall, then file it down to the proper height for my loads. Once that is determined, I can but a night sight.
 
Well, I look at a couple of common as dirt guns such as a K-22 and a K-38 (essentially the same except for the caliber), and the 22 has a very low sight; while the 38 has a very high sight. So far in this exercise I've learned the greater recoil of the 38 would account for the difference in sight height----the movement caused by recoil while the bullet is still in the barrel that is. That pretty much makes my teeth hurt, but like I said: I don't know the first thing about this.

Ralph Tremaine
 
That is correct. Muzzle rise begins as soon as the bullet starts to move forward. That is even more pronounced on single action cowboy guns. Because of the plow handle grip, the gun rolls up in your hand more than on other guns. If you look at those, you will see they have a very tall front sight. The barrel has to start out well below the target to make a hit.
 
My problem is the inability to visualize/understand how the force to move the comparatively tiny mass of the bullet less than the barrel length is going to move the vastly greater mass of the gun in the same amount of time.

RCT
 
There is a massive explosion, (hopefully) contained by the chamber and barrel that propels the light bullet at a high velocity and far distance that pushes the heavier gun in an equal and opposite direction at a slower and much shorter distance.

The weight and velocity of the bullet against the weight of the gun determines how hard the gun recoils. A heavy gun with a light target load has a light recoil. A light gun with a magnum load has a heavy recoil. Weight is the best recoil dampener because of static inertia. That is the tendency of an object at rest to want to remain at rest. The heavier it is, the more energy it takes to get it moving.
 
Thanks gents. Sounds like I should have the dovetail cut and I should try a front sight blank which is tall, then file it down to the proper height for my loads. Once that is determined, I can but a night sight.


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No argument, but my concern, the factor I'm hung up on is the time element. The gas pressure (the force) created by the burning powder starts to build when the powder is ignited. It goes from zero to a bunch within a very short (but real) amount of time (and I will argue about the use of the term "explosion"----given the use of smokeless powder). The bullet starts to move before the force is at its maximum----and the force stops pushing on the bullet at the muzzle of the gun. Not very long after the force stops pushing on the bullet, it gives every appearance of pushing on the gun a whole bunch------------if I may liken the muzzle blast to the exhaust of a rocket/jet engine----and interject the topic of thrust---acting against the atmosphere-----and the gun----which moves a little or a lot as you noted-------depending on the nature of the load and the weight of the gun.

So, here we are once again talking about force and mass, and the time it takes a force to accelerate two different objects------a bullet on the one hand, and a gun on the other hand. We speak of bullet weight in grains. We speak of gun weight in pounds and ounces. If we were to speak of a typical bullet fired from a K-38, we'd speak of a 148 grain wadcutter. If we were to speak of a K-38 (which weighed 2.2lbs on my not legal for trade scale) in the same terminology, we'd speak of a 15,400 grain gun. And as you noted, the heavier it is, the more energy it takes to get it moving. And as I noted (or perhaps am about to), given equal energy acting on a comparatively light weight object and a comparatively heavy weight object, the more time it takes to get it moving--------which is about where I came in.

Now, can I demonstrate this with an irrefutable mathematical formula (as I've been hoping someone here would step up and do)? Nope---not a chance! And that's because the most complicated mathematics course I had in high school was plane geometry---and in college was algebra and trigonometry (and only because both were required for graduation). I made it through trigonometry by memorizing the material to be treated on interim examinations, and went into the final (in the last semester of my senior year---having put off the trig for as long as I could) with a solid A. I talked myself out of taking the final because the instructor was overly impressed with my membership on the Dean's List, and because I told a monstrous fib about an out of town job opening dependent upon starting before the trig final--------and the fact I was willing (thankful) to take a C as a final grade in the course. (Where there's a will, there's a way-----sure enough!!)

My bottom line which I am unable to demonstrate with irrefutable, scientific precision (other than to speak of photographs of bullets in the air while their launch vehicles (clearly visible in the same photos) shows no sign of movement whatsoever----that and a long ago conversation with an engineer from Remington) is the bullet is long gone from the barrel of the gun before there is any movement of the gun caused by recoil whatsoever. And yes, I am acutely aware of the legions who do not share my belief.

Ralph Tremaine
 
Take a look at these pics. It’s a Taurus K-Frame equivalent, but the concept is the same. After cutting from 4” to 3”, the barrel was dovetailed and an XS Sights Big Dot tritium was installed for close & fast work. I haven’t measured the POA/POI differences, but it’s been very effective on steel and B27s at the 7 yard line. Calipers measuring the top of the bore to the top of the new sight vs the original sight and any difference should give a good starting point for expectations. I might have the original muzzle section somewhere and will update if able. All shooting so far has been for speed using a shotgun(ish) flash sight picture. Eventually, we’ll give it a more deliberate and measured workout on the 25 yard line.

First post here. Any errors are mine. Please advise if edits are needed or further detailed would be helpful.

Stay safe.
 

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It always surprises me how one wrong statement can be taken as gospel, violating the entire body of physics. The gun begins to move at the same time the bullet starts to move.

Try this. Take a dowel that will fit into the barrel and place it in the barrel. Then take a second dowel and lay it along the sights.

If the gun/barrel is not moving before the bullet leaves the barrel, you would expect the dowels to be parallel. They are not parallel. The dowel in the barrel will point lower, showing that the barrel must move before the bullet exits or the point of impact will be low compared to the sight line.

Just because someone works with guns does not mean everything they say is right. Kimber is stating their 1911 pistol with lightened slides decreases lock time. Absolutely wrong since the weight of the slide has nothing to do with lock time.
 
Barrel up ward rotation during firing. Here is an interesting fact. As many of you know I built an N frame into a 45 colt carbine with a stock, forearms and 16 1/2" barrel. I started with a way high sight, figuring barrel time etc. I ended up with most of the front sight gone. Why? I figure it is because of much less muzzle rise due to butt stock locking gun into my shoulder and my hand on fore stock preventing the muzzle rise that occurs with a hand gun.

But in a revolve removing 1" from a $ in barrel should reduce muzzle rise by more than 25%. Not only is the barrel shorter but it is lighter
 
biblethumpincop , cool project. In addition to the two fellow members above there have been several other members that have chopped barrels. You may want to search through gunsmithing and 82 to present revolver sub forums to see what they did and how to give you help on your front sight.
 
I am well aware that every powder has a burn rate, so technically it doesn't "explode". I used that term as a graphic illustration method.

In pictures where the bullet is just coming out of the barrel, the gun is already in recoil and the fast action photography catches and stops the movement of both in a moment in time. The bullet and barrel are still lined up at that point because the bullet JUST left the end of the barrel. That is not where the gun was pointing to begin with.
 
Thanks gents. Sounds like I should have the dovetail cut and I should try a front sight blank which is tall, then file it down to the proper height for my loads. Once that is determined, I can but a night sight.

Sorry, not quite. Since night sights are only available in a few heights and can't really be modified.
You need to know the front sight height BEFORE cutting the dovetail.
 
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