Need some advice on ammo

[smith revolver cop]

Originally posted by MattB:
I'm going to be purchasing either a 9mm or .40S&W handgun, and one of its functions will be home defense. The problem is that I live in an apartment, so overpenetration of a bullet could be a serious issue if I ever had to shoot in self defense. Are there any good rounds designed for this kind of situation?

I recommend Winchester's Silver Tip ammo. Probably least overpenetration of any ammo, but specifically designed for extreme expansion in human tissue. I had an on-the-job shooting that involved (among other things) some SilverTips fired into a metal trash can (the regular old-fashioned kind)- not enough bullet intact to figure out who shot it!

 

[MattB]

Originally posted by smith revolver cop:
I recommend Winchester's Silver Tip ammo. Probably least overpenetration of any ammo, but specifically designed for extreme expansion in human tissue. I had an on-the-job shooting that involved (among other things) some SilverTips fired into a metal trash can (the regular old-fashioned kind)- not enough bullet intact to figure out who shot it!

I appreciate the recommendation-I'll have to look into that round. That's pretty much what I'm looking for-a reliable round for defense but something that isn't likely to blow through everything in its path.

 

[OIF1 45man]

Birdshot can be reliable as a stopper but not with a center of mass aim. It is much more effective as a once in the face and once in the crotch double tap. Even if he wants to continue the attack he can't find you.

 

[Gress]

Originally posted by David Sinko:
One of my idiot former co-workers accidentally shot himself with a Glaser Safety Slug while attempting to disassemble a loaded Glock. He owes his life to the inferior penetration of that overrated load.

And it is because of him that we are not allowed to carry Glocks on duty.

Dave Sinko

This may change my thinking.

 

[flop-shank]

Originally posted by OIF1 45man:
Birdshot can be reliable as a stopper but not with a center of mass aim. It is much more effective as a once in the face and once in the crotch double tap. Even if he wants to continue the attack he can't find you.

When someone is trying to kill you, why would you use a system that mandates you go after the harder to hit head than the easier to hit center mass? With a shotgun I'm using Winchester 12 ga. 2 3/4" Foster slugs. I shot one into Perma-Gel with my 20" Ithaca Deerslayer. It stopped in 16", expanded to well over 1" in dia. and demolished the table the gel block was sitting on. There is no special "apartment load". Use what you would on the street. Use what hits hard as hell and shoot less. Less bullets in the air is IMO the best way to avoid hitting innocents. Buckshot along the lines of OO is a good choice also.

 

[Gress]

Originally posted by flop-shank:
...Less bullets in the air is IMO the best way to avoid hitting innocents. Buckshot along the lines of OO is a good choice also.

Thats for sure.

 

[tanksoldier]

Anything that will reliably penetrate deep enough to stop a human will penetrate several sheet rock walls. You can't get around that. Bullets don't magically know that they have hit a wall instead of an attacker, and the human body is remarkably tough for all it's frailty.

Being concerned about what happens AFTER a fight and allowing that to limit you DURING a fight may prevent you from surviving a fight. Taking reasonable precautions is one thing, using something like Glaser ammo because you MIGHT have to shoot someone someday, you MIGHT miss and that miss MIGHT penetrate a wall and your neighbor MIGHT be standing is just the wrong spot... shows a lack of proper prioritization IMO.

A shotgun with #4 buck is IMO the best compromise that DOESN'T compromise your combat power. However, if you are limited to a handgun use whatever works best. If you want to reduce the danger to your neighbors, stop your attacker as quickly as possible.

 

[44forever]

If revolvers are an option, consider the common target wadcutter. When swaged of soft lead the blunt nose and low velocity tend to reduce penetration while still giving reasonable impact effect. And the relatively low recoil makes for quick recovery if follow-up shots are needed.
Added bonuses:
It is amoung the least expensive commercial ammo available so you can afford to practise a lot,
it is designed and loaded for maximum accuracy at moderate distances (150 feet or less),
and if you ever have to use it on someone there is nothing a shyster can point to as showing ill intent as they are the same bullets you use for paper targets at the range.

Also, unlike some premium rounds which can be hard to find, target wadcutters can be had at any range and almost any store that sels ammo.

 

[flop-shank]

Target wadcutters are not low penetration ammo. They will probably penetrate most things more than hot loaded hollowpoints. The mild wadcutter handloads that I have in my wife's model 60 will penetrate 16" of Perma-Gel after four layers of denim. They do, however, have the advantage of fast follow up shots and excellent accuracy. I do agree that they aren't a type of ammo that is likely to cause a legal stink such as Black Talons might.

 

[44forever]

It is true that a wadcutter will penetrate more than a hollow point that expands but the very blunt nose configuration causes them to loose velocity very quickly in any medium and they start with a minimum of velocity in the first place.

A hollow point that does not expand will penetrate about the came as a ball round of the same weight and velocity. Gypsum/wallboard tends to clog hollow points and reduce expansion.

 

[flop-shank]

Very true about the wallboard. There is a great Wadcutter test at www.brassfetcher.com . Click on the "old website" link and look for the Buffalo Bore .38 spl. std. pressure 150 gr. wadcutter test.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Buy a carbine in .223/5.56 and load it with either light varmint JHPs or M193 type ball. Problem solved.

Bullets can do strange things when hitting walls. Just because something will go through a wall on its own, doesn't mean that it'll go through a wall after going through a person. There's also a slew of other objects in an apartment - appliances, furniture, books, studs in the wall....

Beyond that one is confonted with a problem where under an unusual set of circumstances some unknown party might conceivably suffer an injury and is left to weigh that against using ammunition that - in the unlikely event one needs to use their firearm - will risk getting the *user* killed by failing to stop an aggressor.

 

[animalmother]

You could Magsafe or Glaser rounds. That would solve any problems with over-penetration.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Originally posted by animalmother:
You could Magsafe or Glaser rounds. That would solve any problems with over-penetration.

See earlier in the thread where Flop Shank stole my usual line about the problems with Glasers and Magsafes.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

I remember a robber that was shot in the chest with a Glaser Safety Slug by the homeowner. EMS brought him into the and he was unconscious, but there was no bleeding. It turns out that the Glaser blew the hell out of the fat wallet he had in his inside jacket pocket and scared the robber so bad that he fainted - that's not all he did, but that's not germane to this discussion. That incident helped shape my thinking towards the Glasers - I've never bought one round.

By the way, the Marlin Camp Carbines in 9mm or .45ACP may be a good home defense option for those that cannot physically handle a shotgun or shoot a handgun competently. You could also add a flashlight, laser, red dot sight, or whatever works best for you to improve your target acquisition.

Best of luck,

Dave

 

[AJMBLAZER]

On the carbines note...the Marlins are getting hard to find with the .45's damn near impossible. A lot are starting to show their age and built in flaws unfortunately now.

Consider a HiPoint 995 9mm carbine, their 4095 .40 carbine, and the .45 ACP carbine that should be out soon. Not pretty but work, made in the US, and lifetime warranty. Oh, good price too.

 

[MattB]

This is an old thread, but I was looking at M&Ps today and the store had a .357 Sig model for $514 and the .40 which I prefer for $590. $590 is outrageous for an M&P and I told the salesperson I thought it was too expensive. He offered me the .357 at which point I raised concerns about overpenetration. The salesperson proceeded to tell me that I didn't know anything about physics and that .357Sig is less likely to overpenetrate than .40. Is there any truth to that or is the guy just trying to sell me the .357?

 

[flop-shank]

Most modern defensive cartridges in either caliber will probably yield similar penetration. While the .357 is smaller in diameter, which helps penetration, the standard defensive bullet is lighter (124/5? gr.) than those found in the .40, which hinders penetration. It all balances out and the engineers that design ammo can tweek a bullet to get the results they want. Look for online gelatin test results for a given load you're interested in to get an idea of how deeply it is likely to penetrate.

 

[c.marsh]

ONE use "COR-BON"SELF DEFENSE ammo it is the best ////////////

 

[tbury]

Originally posted by scattershot:
Maybe your best bet isn't a handgun at all. A 12 gauge loaded with birdshot will turn an assailant to pulp at household ranges, but the danger of overpenetration is slight.

The G&A Personal Defense DVDs show that this is the most effective with the least overpenetration. The only thing better was a 20GA. 9mm hollow points went through 3 walls (wallboard-air space-wallboard = 1 wall); as did most other pistol rounds including a .22 lr.