New .38sp ammo too small?

[David Sinko]

Funny you should mention love handles and the .44 Magnum... I recently saw a serveillence video of a guy putting his would-be armed robber into a bear hug and trying to wrestle him to the floor. The armed robber then shot him right through both love handles with a long barreled .44 Magnum, with the bullets going down into the floor. This did in fact make the shootee very angry! The shooter then held the gun up a little higher and delivered the killing shot. The bullet used was some cheapo jacketed something or other and the core separated from the jacket shortly after impact. While it killed the human instantly, I have no doubt that it would fail against something very large or tough skinned. You need to put the bullet where it needs to go and it needs to get there in one piece. Much of our modern JHP ammo leaves much to be desired, either because the bullets don't hold together or there just isn't enough velocity.

With the .38 Special you can't go wrong with a hard 158 gr. SWC at 1000 FPS or more, if the gun can handle it. And any modern 2" J Frame can exceed these ballistics when properly loaded.

Dave Sinko

 

[Dogguy]

I used to read books by the author Lee Child until one of his books had his "hero" decide he would take a full chest shot from a "puny" .38 Special and continue the fight. Of course, the hero took the slug in the chest and won the fight and lived to fight another day because the .38 Special is so underpowered it barely penetrated the first layer of hardened muscles on the hero's manly chest. (Barf!)

I now refuse to read anything else by this moron.

The .38 Special actually is pretty underpowered when using the standard velocity 158 gr. RNL bullets of the past. But even with this relatively underpowered round, the .38 has performed pretty well over the years. Today, ammunition is better designed with high performance projectiles and special propellents and the guns are stronger. You can take you pick of powerful rounds chambered for .38 Special by many ammo makers. Even "bargain" brand guns by companies like Charter Arms, Rossi and Taurus are built well enough to handle the ammo. Bottom line: the .38 Special has always been pretty good and it is a better choice today than ever before.

 

[pred]

I may get flamed here But I will continue.
I train at 15 yards with paper plates. Simple and easy.
I will hang 10 or more of them and try different ammo in the gun I intend to carry.
I currently carry an old Model 49.
Well with lots of ammo and a few hours shooting I can tell you this one thing.
If I absolutely want to get 5 rounds on the plate as fast as possible I can do it fastest with 38 Special Wad cutters. And I mean FAST.
So what do I want out of a defensive handgun?
For me it is to stop getting beaten, Stop my woman from being attacked, Stop my dog from being mauled from another dog.
So basically I am NOT HUNTING, And I dont have the time to aim and shoot carefully, I will need to react fast and accurately.
Well call me a wuss, But I know that I can get 5 shots on target just about as fast as I can pull the little J frames trigger.
So I carry 38 WCs.
They may be considered underpowered, But I doubt an offender would be thinking that when hit 5 times in about 2 seconds or less.....
I am a peaceful man who never would want to hurt anybody~~~~
I carry a 44 mag when camping or hiking in Bear country.
But otherwise I am happy with the 38.
~~NOTE~~~
Last year in NJ a guy shot his wife in the back with a pellet rifle for some @*&@$ reason.
Well it hit the cartelidge in her spine and she went down and died......
Peter

 

[pete950]

Just like Pred said but I like a dewc by BB it gets the penitration and its not to hard to shoot and most important its accurate.

 

[schmumble]

When you say that you have no doubt, I believe you. However, that does not make what you don't doubt true. How many human beings have you seen shot with four times, or even once, with a .44 mag? How many with other cartridges? Have you read any factual reports of shootings? Have you discussed wounds with any emergency-room doctors, or others who have actually observed a fair number of shootings, or at least their eventual effects? Have you ever been shot? Have you used other ways of learning the varying effects of having a small channel almost instantaneously punched in one or another part of your thorax?

Both a .357 and a .44 can be used with projectiles which will completely penetrate a human body, some doing so slightly expanded. I think that the point of Texas Star's friend's switch was to shoot better with a gun which would still accomplish the mission if used properly.

i have no doubt what so ever that if i shot any human being on this planet with a .44 mag round...in the chest...that part of their spine would exit with the round..a simple 38 special round...to the chest will drop 99% of people shot. if you or anyone else doesnt think so please step up and show me other wise. ive seen first hand what a 357 mag will do to the human body(as a child) my friend was shot. i think people are being unrealistic about what a 38/357/44 round will actually do. i do not disagree at all on a well placed shot...my whole grip is...these rounds are alot stronger than most people truly know.

 

[BigRich315]

I may get flamed here But I will continue.
I train at 15 yards with paper plates. Simple and easy.
I will hang 10 or more of them and try different ammo in the gun I intend to carry.
I currently carry an old Model 49.
Well with lots of ammo and a few hours shooting I can tell you this one thing.
If I absolutely want to get 5 rounds on the plate as fast as possible I can do it fastest with 38 Special Wad cutters. And I mean FAST.
So what do I want out of a defensive handgun?
For me it is to stop getting beaten, Stop my woman from being attacked, Stop my dog from being mauled from another dog.
So basically I am NOT HUNTING, And I dont have the time to aim and shoot carefully, I will need to react fast and accurately.
Well call me a wuss, But I know that I can get 5 shots on target just about as fast as I can pull the little J frames trigger.
So I carry 38 WCs.
They may be considered underpowered, But I doubt an offender would be thinking that when hit 5 times in about 2 seconds or less.....
I am a peaceful man who never would want to hurt anybody~~~~
I carry a 44 mag when camping or hiking in Bear country.
But otherwise I am happy with the 38.
~~NOTE~~~
Last year in NJ a guy shot his wife in the back with a pellet rifle for some @*&@$ reason.
Well it hit the cartelidge in her spine and she went down and died......
Peter

No flaming here, I think you hit the nail on the head. You found a round that you and your 49 like, and then you practiced to the point that you have complete confidence that the two of you can get the job done, quickly and cleanly. 5 well placed shots will stop anybody (meth-head possibly excluded, the things they have been known to do shouldn't be physically possible).

 

[BigRich315]

There's your problem right there.....

Agreed. They're wrong, we're right! And Welcome to tiptoe2lups! You'll find that the folks here are alot more open minded and provide the most practical advice you'll find anywhere.

I can't believe some of the views I've found in other forums. One won't even ALLOW the discussion of any caliber smaller than 9mm. I excused myself from that forum just before I arrived here. You can't ignore results. Just because something might not be the "best" choice doesn't mean you should exclude it completely. 38spl has proven itself to be a reliable defensive round despite what some groups would lead you to believe.

And to answer tiptoe2lups' last question, Corbon makes great defensive ammo.

 

[photoman]

There's your problem right there.....

We can always count on the sharp wit of sipowicz...

 

[Landric]

i have no doubt what so ever that if i shot any human being on this planet with a .44 mag round...in the chest...that part of their spine would exit with the round..a simple 38 special round...to the chest will drop 99% of people shot. if you or anyone else doesnt think so please step up and show me other wise. ive seen first hand what a 357 mag will do to the human body(as a child) my friend was shot. i think people are being unrealistic about what a 38/357/44 round will actually do. i do not disagree at all on a well placed shot...my whole grip is...these rounds are alot stronger than most people truly know.

So, basically you are calling Texas Star a liar.

Just a little bit of research will find you plenty of instances where people who have survived and kept fighting after being hit with rounds that carry both more muzzle energy and momentum than any .44 Magnum. It is what it is, there are no sure things in life.

New .38sp ammo too small?
Is .38sp ammo too small?

Nope, its the same size its always been.

 

[photoman]

Bottom line is... Don't count on any gun to get the job done. If all your rounds don't take effect, be willing to go over and rip out their eyeballs with your bare hands if you have to.

 

[rpg0123]

The size of a bullet is only one factor. 38 spl nowadays provides a pretty good mix of bullet size and velocity to offer decent penetration. Old problems with the 38 spl had a lot to do with bullet design before modern improvements. Some large bullets are too large to kick up much velocity to penetrate well too. I've seen head imaging with large bullets (45 in this case) that barely penetrated the skull and only embedded maybe an inch or two below the skull. What makes a rifle so effective? Velocity. I wouldn't doubt 38+p in a 130 gr bullet or so with hollow point at reasonable distances.

 

[bubbajoe45]

i have no doubt what so ever that if i shot any human being on this planet with a .44 mag round...in the chest...that part of their spine would exit with the round.

. . . if you hit the spine - that's what the other posters are talking about. You could easily shoot someone in the chest 4 times (with a .44 mag) and NOT hit the spine.

I know of two people shot with .44 mags that lived to tell about it. One was in Georgia: a gun store owner's girlfriend got in a disagreement with him about telling his wife or something and she shot him with a .44 (not sure exactly where). He returned fire as well - needless to say, he ended up divorced, with no girlfriend after he got out of the hospital (lost his business also). The other was in Nevada: a would-be Quick-Draw McGraw was practicing with his new Ruger Vaquero in .44 Mag - loaded. I saw pictures of his leg; laid open from stem to stern (it was ugly).

This thread reminds me of something Roy Huntington said in a story some years back about an Outdoorsman he had converted to .45 Colt by Hamilton Bowen with Roy fishpaw grips. When ribbed about his old fashioned revolver by his 'glockenschpiel' cop buddies he replied that they could stand off and he would shoot at them until they got tired of it. Nobody wants to get shot with anything, not even a .25 (at least I don't), but to put somebody down you've got to hit 'em where it counts.

 

[RonS]

The problem is that people want to fixate on a single factor in a complex question.

What is the nature of the target? Average guy? Stoned on something unpronouncable? Enraged and bent on destruction?

Where is the hit? Through a muscle? Spine, lung, heart? Hit bone or not?

What is the target wearing? Leather jacket over a sweater and shirt or a wifebeater and a gang tattoo?

What bullet? LRN, generic HP, high tech HP? Lead, all copper, JHP?

I am kind of a history buff and have dozens of books written by WWII vets and Vietnam Vets about their experiences. I am struck by the tales of soldiers, sailors and airmen who were wounded by aircraft cannon, crewserved weapons and fragments from gravity bombs and continued to function.

There was a Japanese pilot who was wounded in the face by a .30-06, his eye was put out and he flew back to base and landed his plane with part of a .30-06 bullet in his eyeball. On a more extreme example there was a B17 crewman who carried a burning incendary bomb out of the bombbay and threw it out of the plane while it burned both of his hands off. Many Vietnam chopper pilots were wounded by 12.7mm HMH fire and continued to fly long enough to complete the mission or at least land, depending on where they were hit.

People are unpredictable, there are no simple answers and all you can do is play the odds. I carried a 4" S&W with LRN ammo for 4 years, I would carry one again, but you can bet it would be with the best hollowpoints I could find. (I carry a .45 ACP 1911 now, just for the record.)

 

[exfebee]

A 38 will do it. I once went to a Bank Robbery where the bad guy (the dude) was 260 pounds and a good 6 feet tall. He was wearing a T-Shirt & Blue Jeans. Came into the Bank & fired a shot straight at the bank teller. He apparently didn't know the glass in front of her was bullet proof. 45 caliber slug glanced up into the ceiling. The Bank's Security Guard was an older retired police officer about 70 years of age. The Guard was armed with plain 38+P ammo. No hollow point. From a distance of 15 feet he cranked off 4 shots for a "perfect K5 kill area". The group was about 3 inches across. The "dude" was dead by the time he hit the floor. What a great retired police officer. A 38 will do the job.

 

[Hook686]

Actually, I once knew a man who hit a thug in the chest four times with a .44 Magnum, and the man ran for blocks, no vital organ being hit. That officer switched to a Model 19 with full .357 loads, and resovled to aim better.

If the BG runs away, is that not good enough results from any SD scenario ?

I'd rather have him be hit by a .44 magnum and run away, than hit by a .38 and keep coming.

 

[reerc]

Like Erich says shot placement is king, God save the queen and angels win pin shoots (or something like that - but I agree with the shot placement part).

My favorite post in this thread.

 

[79ipa]

medxam

hey medxam what caliber do you carry for self defense?

 

[Babalooie]

110 grain Hydra-Shoks.