NEW FIND: 1935 FBI "Raid Badges"

[lw]

Hi Gents:

Not being a collector etc., I don't get to this forum much but wanted to mention something that might be of some interest. I'll try to keep this short. Pls contact me direct at: [email protected] about this if necessary; phone 716-628-2526 (NY EST)

Wasn't sure which forum to post this at:

Although I am waiting for more FBI docs, I have located enough direct evidence from files that in 1935, the FBI was seeking the manufacture of 4" x 3" "raid badges." These were to have red lacquer in them; large lettering and made of chrome or nickel. The FBI wanted 300 of them initially, and they were to be manufactured at the L. G. Balfour Company in Attleboro, Mass. (Frankly, these things were obviously going to be somewhat heavy and the size of them might make them appear to be "party badges" if seen today)

It is very clear these "raid badges" are different items than the standard "FBI badge" we're all familiar with.

I'm going to attempt to attach 2 items to this posting; one is a memo about these badges and the second is a page from Julia auctions revealing a Hoover Raid Badge sold at auction. I don't know who currently owns the Hoover Raid Badge shown and I don't need his identity but I do need to speak to him/her about it by phone. Based on existing info, there is a strong possibility that this badge in circulation could be a sample or the actual prototype of the one made by Balfour.

The design sketch and details in the FBI file, coupled with the wording on the proposed badge, in addition to the use of red lacquer indicates that the proposed badge in 1935 virtually appears identical to the "Hoover Raid Badge" at the Julia auction. (This badge at auction may have been sold with a Hoover Colt; not sure)

I do have some info that, although it's not mentioned in the Julia ad, the raid badge shown originally came from dentist, Richard Mohr. He would have obtained it from his father Asst. Dir. John Mohr, FBI who would have obtained it from Hoover's estate. If that's true, I think the auction badge is highly significant to this search.

We currently do not know if the deal for the 300 raid badges was actually carried out. There was also a request for 300 FBI armbands of similar design and we're not sure of that either. Added documents might reveal more detail when I get them. (Personally, I cannot see Hoover/Baughman and others adopting this gaudy looking raid badge. It was Baughman's idea though. Docs do show 300 red lettered, on white cloth, FBI armbands were distributed to field offices. We do not have any of them on hand per the FBI's Historian I have spoken to about this whole issue in the last few days)

The documents I have, and will be getting more of, may be of definite assistance to the above badge owner and may be directly related. I'll be more than happy to share them; right now these docs are laid out on my floor being examined but I've seen enough info in them to believe they may be related to the badge that was auctioned.

If anyone can assist me in getting in touch with the owner of that Hoover Raid Badge, it would greatly assist the both of us in resolving this. Again, I do not need to know his identity but I need some particulars of it.

What many collectors thought to be the circulation of bogus FBI type "party badges" may indeed be authentic. It's unclear to me how many of these things are "floating around."

Hopefully my attachments will come out on here. The typed notes and "arrows" on the docs are mine.

Thanks much
Larry Wack
FBI - Ret.

P. S. If you haven't been by in a while, stop by my website. Some new info all the time!
Home - Dusty Roads Of An FBI Era

 

[lawandorder]

Larry I was in the badge collecting field, seriously, for over 45 years and that is the first reference I have seen or heard of them. Thank you for sharing this great bit of badge history.Keep up your fantastic work! Your efforts are very much appreciated.
Tony

 

[lw]

FBI Raid Badges

Thanks Tony:

On a final note with this right now, I'm posting 3 added items with regard to this subject, and the raid badge at the auction, further reflecting some interesting details.

1. another memo on the subject of badges and armbands with notes/arrows that are mine.

2. 2 sketches of a design that from FBI documents so far seem to be the approved one accepted by the Bureau. These were submitted by SAC Whitley of the New York Office and I don't know if he actually drew these or someone else in the office did. It appears Whitley may have been the liaison with Balfour.

You can readily see the sketches bear virtually the same design as the auction badge. Bureau wanted 4" by 3", note the auction badge is 3 7/8" x 3"

I do want to reiterate here that although the Bureau actually placed an order for 300 of these badges, it appears Balfour mentions that using red lettering/ink is some type of a problem with the baking process. I don't have enough docs from file yet, but it appears to me there's a strong chance Hoover put the "order on hold" (my words) and wanted to see a "sample" of what Balfour suggested with changes. This is where my information stops with regard to the actual order; added docs are going to take some months to receive from my FOIA request. Whether the changes resulted in the use of white lettering (as shown with the auction badge) as opposed to red lettering the Bureau wanted is yet to be seen.

If Hoover et al changed their minds on use of this large badge, and opted to go with the armbands instead, that might explain why I have never seen any of these red, white etc. 1935 raid badges floating around out there.

Needless to say, I am interested if others have seen these large raid badges in circulation. If in fact, the order of 300 of the did go through, we cannot account for any of them right now, inside or outside the FBI. I am in discussion with the FBI Historian on this issue.

see attached

larry wack
FBI - Ret.

 

[lawandorder]

Larry it is a bit similar in style to the early Bureau of Treasury prohibition badges with the enamel fronts.

 

[handejector]

I moved this thread to this section because it really fits nowhere else.

There has always been a lot of FBI history presented here because of the coincidence of the Reg Mag introduction and the arming of the FBI and Hoover's recruiting of "The Shooters" in 1935.

 

[JayCeeNC]

Larry, thanks for sharing this with us.

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

Does anybody know what the badge or chiefs special actually sold for at auction?

 

[lw]

FBI Raid Badges

Thanks much gents:

FYI, a Smith collector has mentioned to me that he thinks (?) this badge was sold again at the Vegas auction last year - not sure.

I have also made contact with badge collector Ken Lucas about this and the whereabouts of the owner. Ken is making contact with one of the more well known badge collectors in San Francisco whose name escapes me right now.

Thanks for any help.

larry wack

 

[Mike McLellan]

Years ago, I was into badge collecting. That doesn't make me an expert, and I have no desire to question the OP's integrety. However, I have seen, from time to time, many badges surface that were hitherto unseen. These, most often, turned out to be "fantasy" badges that someone had specially made. I would treat all undocumented badges with due caution.

 

[JayCeeNC]

A local FBI agent I worked closely with was transferred to the NY office.
He said he and other agents just got an NYPD detective gold shield to carry and flash if needed. He was usually accompanied by an NYPD detective and it was just quicker.

 

[SpartanDCI]

Back in the day, the 1970's to be exact, I worked for the DEA at their HQ in Washington, DC. I worked at their firing range for a time until there was an opening on the 9th floor, and my mentor was a NYC DEA Special Agent, who was a Vietnam vet and crack shot. Seems in his past he was a US Army SF Light Weps man, and later joined the NYPD when he got home from SE Asia. He told me that the DEA Special Agents shield/badge was redesigned when DEA was formed from a bunch of different agencies in the 1970's. He told me that it was designed by an Agent who was a former NYPD Narcotics detective, and it was intentionally designed so that a DEA Agent in NYC could put his thumb over the DEA writing on the badge and with the gold and blue enamel showing, it looked like a NYPD Detectives shield, since then no one know - good or bad, knew what D.E.A. was. Times have obviously changed.

It was an interesting story that I have heard numerous times. Probably doesnt apply to the original post about the FBI raid badges, but since I grew up with FEDs in my family, household and career. I find it interesting.

Nice post, hope more info is uncovered.

Not to knock the FBI, but why the hell is the agent's badge so small? My badges with the DEA, Navy and State Department was twice as big as the FBI's Special Agent badge, but their credentials were the largest of any Federal Officers. Just something that has stuck in the back of my mind for almost 40 years.