New M&P 15 Sport problem.

[Grawbad]

Hello everyone, I think I am going to have to send this Rifle to Smith & Wesson, but I thought I would bounce this off you guys and see what you think.

In short I can not remove the Bolt Cam Pin from the carrier due to what seems to be not enough clearance between it and the gas tube or gas something. Sorry I am new to this.

I have tried everything, even turning it on the side that is shorter to see if it would come out. No avail. When extended it hits the gas thing no matter what I do. I have looked at tons of people do this online with many different rifles and they all just turn the bolt carrier over and it falls out. Not gonna happen here.

I have shown the rifle to someone who does have some experience with them and he says he thinks its not correct, that it should fall right out.

Tomorrow I am taking back to the shop and I assume if it needs repair he will take care of it with Smith & Wesson for me.

I have a couple pictures that I hope help you see what I mean, and I hope maybe someone will go, Oh wait, you just need to do this and your good, though I am thinking that is not going to happen.
My best guess is the gas thing did not get filed down enough.

This is a brand new rifle, never been fired. I am just trying to clean it like the manual said to do before firing it.
The pictures look washed out but the metal is black matte like it should be.

I hope someone can help me out, I hope I am just missing something.
Thanks in advance.

 

[tcook90]

I'm not super experienced with my Sport yet, I've only had it a few months, but I just pulled my bolt and compared it with your pics. I can't see any major differences between them, but if I turn mine upside down, the cam pin falls right out. It doesn't even touch the gas key once it's turned "longways".

 

[gunny4053]

Pull the bolt as far forward as you can, then push it to the rear as far as you can. With the bolt in the rear most position and the cam pin turned so the long axis is parallel to the long axis of the bolt, it should pull right past the gas key. It has to be something simple, the cam pin could not be installed at the factory otherwise.

Good Luck and good shooting.

 

[MichiganScott]

I've got four AR's and I have to pull the cam pin out on all of them with my fingernails. It does not fall out from any of them.

Gunny4053 is correct. It does not look like the cam pin is all the way to the rear in your photos.

 

[Grawbad]

Thanks guys. The reason it doesn't look all the way to the rear is because I was trying to take pictures of it and it slides around a bit.

I have tried "EVERY" position and angle I can think of.
To be honest, the only way I think they could have gotten the cam in there is if they put it in before they put the gas key on.
I have pushed it all the way back, tried it all the way back and forward a bit where it seems like it might have a bit more clearance, I have tried everything.

I was trying to take pictures to show the contact is all, but I realize they are not adequate.

No matter what I do, the cam makes contact with the gas key just before the little grinding they did on the side of the tube. If I ground a little off on either piece it would come out. Something I am not going to do. I am sure Smith & Wesson will take care of it.

 

[rojodiablo]

What you describe seems to be a bent pin is wedged in there. You can work it out with pliers; grab it, and twist and pull until the pin comes out. Another thing; not sure of the number of rounds thru the rifle; but it sure looks new. Call them and see if they have a warranty shop close by. Any way you slice it, you will be getting some new parts to fix that.

 

[webfarmer]

not sure of the number of rounds thru the rifle; but it sure looks new.

He said it's brand new - never been fired.

 

[Rastoff]

It's not a bent pin. He has the firing pin out. It's turned the right way. Hmmm, never seen that before. I wish I could hold it.

 

[o-townFLA]

Does it at least rotate at all?

 

[SmokeStack Lightning]

Tomorrow I am taking back to the shop and I assume if it needs repair he will take care of it with Smith & Wesson for me.

Let us know what the haps is on this. nnnnnnnnnn,K??

 

[CatSnipah]

This is a new issue to me.

Now, my pin doesn't just fall out, I have to use a screwdriver to help it pop out,,but it doesn't take much effort....however, it doesn't just fall out.

Oh, and I don't own a sport, but a different manufacturer. Still shouldn't matter.

 

[Grawbad]

I was able to take it to the shop I purchased it from today. He said that Smith has "Tight Tolerance's" and then tried to take it out. He couldn't do it with his hands. He broke out some needle nose and it took him a couple minutes but was able to wiggle it out.

After that he took the bolt out. Once he did, he was unable to get the bolt back in easily.

He said, had I just fired it like most people do, this probably wouldn't have been like this. I was just following the manual as it said to clean it first, but he said that it would have loosened some after some rounds were put through it.
Since he was having so much trouble getting the bolt back in, he gave me a new bolt and that slid right in and my cam worked perfectly in it. Now I don't have a problem.

I was kind of worried about having a different bolt that what came with it, but he said it will be fine and what he gave me was every bit as good as the one he couldn't get back in and that if I had any trouble that I shouldn't worry as he would give me a new bolt.

I am a bit OCD and it still kind of bothers me that I have a different bolt in it than what came with it.

In any event, I went to the range today and put a couple magazines down range and it shoots flawlessly and accurately. I was surprised at how well I was hitting the target with just iron sights.
I would have shot more but apparently green tip means armor piercing and I wasn't supposed to be shooting that at an indoor range. I just bought what Wal-Mart had and it didn't say anything about being armor piercing.

Anyways, thanks for all the help guys.
Do you think I should have made a fuss about the bolt? On one hand I am happy, I have a flawlessly running rifle, but then all I can think about is its not a Smith & Wesson Bolt inside. lol

 

[Chew]

Do you think I should have made a fuss about the bolt? On one hand I am happy, I have a flawlessly running rifle, but then all I can think about is its not a Smith & Wesson Bolt inside. lol

No.

Wait until you start modding the rifle and it doesn't remotely resemble what you brought home.

A non-factory bolt will be the last thing you think about.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[rojodiablo]

It's not a bent pin. He has the firing pin out. It's turned the right way. Hmmm, never seen that before. I wish I could hold it.

I meant the cam pin, not the firing pin. I would assume it is swelled, or something of that nature, or somehow bent.

Doesn't matter; it's on it's way to the trashcan......

 

[MichiganScott]

Different new bolt with new rifle, no problem. Old bolt with new rifle, potential problem. Old bolt in a different old rifle, good chance of a problem. You've got nothing to worry about.

Sounds like tolerance stack. Go shoot it and enjoy.

 

[Rastoff]

I meant the cam pin, not the firing pin.

Yeah, I knew what you meant. I just don't see how the cam pin can be bent.

It's moot now, but I hope the dealer sends it to S&W for evaluation. A good manufacturer would take a defective part like that and figure out what went wrong. This way they could ensure it won't happen again.

 

[CrustyShellback]

Mine was just like that. Well, not just. But its tight. Like the guy at the shop said, "they have some tight tolerances".

Its loosened up a bit with firing. Haven't really had any problem removing it, since that initial cleaning, after firing. I didn't clean it before the range. I wiped it down, put a couple drops lube in there and put her to use.

 

[gunny4053]

Glad to see you're up and running.

 

[cyphertext]

Sorry, but I would want the Smith bolt. You are not experienced with the AR, and you probably do not know what type of bolt the shop gave you. Who made the bolt? Is it HPT and MPI tested, or at least batch tested? What type of steel was used?

The bolt may be as good as what is provided with Smith as new... it may even be better, but without knowing the specs, you don't know. I would still contact S&W and send the bolt back in for them to inspect and repair / replace.

Also, green tips are not "armor piercing".... They don't sell armor piercing ammo at Walmart. It has a "steel penetrator", which means it has steel added in to help with penetration at longer ranges. It is a standard 5.56 round, but the indoor range probably does not allow steel core bullets due to the damage done to the backstop.

 

[CrustyShellback]

The "Penetrator" rounds, as noted aren't really armor piercing, as most armor is hardened. The steel core on the green tips, will indeed go thru 1/4" steel and they'll do it at 200 yds, but its not hardened steel, which makes a difference. Almost anything built to withstand firearms, is going to be made of hardened steel, or a denser/stronger material.

But, they will most certainly will rip thru car doors and more at a couple hundred yards. Oh... and crappy indoor range targets.

Personally, I'd go back to the store and get my original bolt back. I really don't think there's a problem with it. When I first dissembled mine, I was watching a video and for the life of me, could not figure out how the heck that guy was taking it apart. Finally, I figured out... its just tight. Real tight. I grabbed a pair of pliers, first time.

But, never needed them after that... and the gun works flawless.

 

[straight stick]

My new SPORTER was really tight also, but not as tight as yours apparently. After shooting the rifle it was just fine. It sounds as though the store owner is doing right by you. If you really want an original bolt, just buy the new bolt from the shop & send the problem Bolt back to the factory for repair or replacement. That way you will have a spare on hand.

 

[SiGfever]

Sorry, but I would want the Smith bolt. You are not experienced with the AR, and you probably do not know what type of bolt the shop gave you. Who made the bolt? Is it HPT and MPI tested, or at least batch tested? What type of steel was used?

The bolt may be as good as what is provided with Smith as new... it may even be better, but without knowing the specs, you don't know. I would still contact S&W and send the bolt back in for them to inspect and repair / replace.

Also, green tips are not "armor piercing".... They don't sell armor piercing ammo at Walmart. It has a "steel penetrator", which means it has steel added in to help with penetration at longer ranges. It is a standard 5.56 round, but the indoor range probably does not allow steel core bullets due to the damage done to the backstop.

This is what is important.

 

[Grawbad]

Thanks guys.

I am not at home currently but as soon as I can, I will post up some pics of the new bolt.

The only difference I could see when at the shop was the smith bolt had 2 letters on it, this one had the same two followed by an I or a 1.

Probably what was mentioned in this thread.

In any event, as soon as I can, I will get the pics up.

On that note, now that I have fired it, I don't think he would just trade me back the original bolt.

I don't really think I want to spend a couple hundred on an extra bolt either.

Well, I guess it all hinges on the bolt I have. I will update as soon as I can. Hopefully tonight.

EDIT: I just remembered he also took the pin out of the bolt and showed me the spring on both of them. Even that was exactly the same. They both were the short type with the little rubber gasket on them. To be honest, as far as I could tell the only way you could tell them apart was the presence of the third letter or number on it.

 

[shawn mccarver]

There is no way I would have agreed to a bolt from another rifle or from his parts bin. In addition, if he took the bolt from another rifle, will that be disclosed to the new buyer? If such were disclosed to me, it would kill the deal on a rifle. Do you mind telling us the name of the dealer? What if it is not an S&W part and you need warranty service? What if the headspace is affected by this swap out creating a dangerous situation? I would have wanted a swap of the entire rifle or a refund.

 

[Grawbad]

There is no way I would have agreed to a bolt from another rifle or from his parts bin. In addition, if he took the bolt from another rifle, will that be disclosed to the new buyer? If such were disclosed to me, it would kill the deal on a rifle. Do you mind telling us the name of the dealer? What if it is not an S&W part and you need warranty service? What if the headspace is affected by this swap out creating a dangerous situation? I would have wanted a swap of the entire rifle or a refund.

It wasn't a parts bin part. He took it from a brand new bolt carrier group he had for sale.
But I am with you. Its a bit odd to me.

He swore to me it was just as good as the one I had and even told me he would replace it if I had any problems, which he assures me I wont.

In any event, it obviously bothers me probably more so than most people as I am really funny about the stuff I own. I can't buy used stuff, and I keep my stuff pretty much as new as the day it was made because I am so anal.

I will be heading home soon. Will get the pics up if I can.

EDIT: I don't want to out him publicly just yet for a couple of reasons. He is a really nice guy. I have purchased firearms from him on a few occasions and have never had any trouble and he always takes care of me and gives me really good prices.
He is a military guy and he knows the AR platform probably more than I ever will and he is also a gun smith. At this point I don't feel like he is trying to screw me or anything like that, I am just anal. If it weren't for that I don't think I would have even questioned this.
But I am taking the thoughts in this thread seriously and if I do have real trouble I will definitely let people know about it.
Again, will get pics up of the current bolt when I get home.

 

[Grawbad]

OK everyone, let me know what you think.
Its not been cleaned after those rounds I put through it. I just took it out and wiped it off a bit.

And again, its pics from my phone, they are washed out and it is black in person.

EDIT: The smith looked exactly the same to me except it only had MP on it and this had the MP1 or I.

 

[cyphertext]

There is no way I would have agreed to a bolt from another rifle or from his parts bin. In addition, if he took the bolt from another rifle, will that be disclosed to the new buyer? If such were disclosed to me, it would kill the deal on a rifle. Do you mind telling us the name of the dealer? What if it is not an S&W part and you need warranty service? What if the headspace is affected by this swap out creating a dangerous situation? I would have wanted a swap of the entire rifle or a refund.

It's a new, unfired rifle and I am assuming a new bolt, so there shouldn't be any headspacing issues to worry about. I do agree about a non S&W part creating issue for warranty service, but it sounds like the dealer is actually servicing the rifle for his customer, vs. sending it back to S&W. I would just ask him to show you the standards that the bolt was built to. If it is Carpenter 158, and has been high pressure tested and magnetic particle inspected, then you have no worries.

It is rare for a shop to take an interest in a customer and fix a problem like yours has. It appears he stands behind the product he sells and will attempt to provide a fix for any issues before sending it back to the factory. If you are a repeat customer, I doubt you have anything to worry about.

 

[gdnagle]

Could be the picture but looks like two of your gas rings are in line. You might want to stagger them. Also green tip as explained is also a 62gr bullet. And if your not familiar with your rifle remember, if your barrel is marked 5.56 you can also shoot .223 in it. Sounds like it's shooting just fine. Take it out and enjoy it. And yes if S&W can tell the difference you could have problems if a warranty issue comes up.

 

[Grawbad]

Could be the picture but looks like two of your gas rings are in line. You might want to stagger them. Also green tip as explained is also a 62gr bullet. And if your not familiar with your rifle remember, if your barrel is marked 5.56 you can also shoot .223 in it. Sounds like it's shooting just fine. Take it out and enjoy it. And yes if S&W can tell the difference you could have problems if a warranty issue comes up.

Yeah, they didn't start out that way. Before I put everything back together I cleaned and lubed and staggered those rings as he told me to when I was there.

Yes, I was unable to find 223 around me. That box of 150 was 67 dollars and I figured I would give it a shot. My next ammo purchase for 5.56 or 223 will be online for something in the 30 cent per round range.

Also, I did mention the fact that if I ever did have to send it to smith and wesson they would probably not like that I have a different bolt in there and he said that if I ever did need to do that he would take care of everything for me. He said he would be the one dealing with smith and I wouldn't have to worry about anything at all.

 

[rojodiablo]

Yeah, they didn't start out that way. Before I put everything back together I cleaned and lubed and staggered those rings as he told me to when I was there.

Yes, I was unable to find 223 around me. That box of 150 was 67 dollars and I figured I would give it a shot. My next ammo purchase for 5.56 or 223 will be online for something in the 30 cent per round range.

Also, I did mention the fact that if I ever did have to send it to smith and wesson they would probably not like that I have a different bolt in there and he said that if I ever did need to do that he would take care of everything for me. He said he would be the one dealing with smith and I wouldn't have to worry about anything at all.

He's a good guy. Keep giving him your business.

A lot- a whole lot of shops would have told you "Not possible, you broke something" or "Send it back to S&W."

A guy who gets your ride back up and running??? Thats' good news.
The MP stands for Magnetic Particle tested. The I is a secondary lot inspection, which involves some further testing of the bolts, and some tested bolts from the lot are destructive tested and inspected. Not sure whose bolt it is, but you are GTG. (Fact is..... most bolts in AR's- NOBODY knows who really made them!