New M&P Owner w/ Problems

[wkywthunter]

Hello to all. New owner. New to Forum.


I bought the full size M&P .40 about 2 weeks ago. I took it to the range the day after I bought it, shot 45 rounds through it and loved it. It was dead on, and not a hint of a failure of any kind.

Day 3. Took to range, put 45 rounds through it, not a hint of a failure of any kind. Loved it even more.

Day 5. Took to an IDPA match, shot approximately 80 rounds through it, and it failed to feed about 5 times.

Day 7. Took it to range, put 45 rounds through it, and it failed to feed about 3 or 4 times.

Day 8. I'm wondering what the heck is going on, and what I need to do about it.

The only ammunition I have used is the Federal FMJ 180gr.
What is happening: When fired, the gun properly extracts/ ejects the fired round, pushes the next round up with the tip into the chamber, and stops. It appears (although hard to see exactly what is going on at this point) that the edge of the brass is catching on the edge of the chamber, and holding there due to the pressure of the guide rod spring.

When this happens, I can pull the slide back a 1/16" and the round pops up and I can just release the slide and it will fully chamber at that time.

I have inspected the edge of the chamber, and it seems very smooth. I have inspected the rounds that fail to feed, and they seem in order, with no unordinary roughness or bent brass.

Does anybody have any ideas? Anybody else ever have this problem??

 

[ledman]

Maybe polishing the feed ramp will smooth things out

 

[kscardsfan]

Have you checked to see if it is the same one magazine? Usually the mag is the culprit in feeding cases. I would start by marking each mag uniquely and testing them individually from there. If you find out it is always with the same one mag, use that mag as a target and enjoy your new pistol! If thats not the case, it might be time for a call to S&W, if its that new and has that low of a round count it shouldn't be having feeding issues yet.

 

[SharpshooterOPD]

Another possibility is a tight extractor. Be sure to scrub the breech face when you clean the pistol, and give some extra attention to the area under the extractor in case some foreign matter has found its way there. If it is a tight extractor, it may correct itself with enough firing. Otherwise, send it back to S&W and they'll take care of it.

HRF

 

[7shooter]

I'd skip the home remedies. I had a similar problem with an M&P 9 and had a local very good smith try everyhing he could think of. I then sent it back to S&W and they fixed it and they gave me a free mag. They didn't really tell me what they did but now it works great.

 

[growr]

I would echo what 7shooter said...send it to S&W ....let them take care of it. They issue a call tag and deliver. You have a life time warranty...use it. You will NOT regret it!
Randy

 

[wkywthunter]

I'd skip the home remedies. I had a similar problem with an M&P 9 and had a local very good smith try everything he could think of. I then sent it back to S&W and they fixed it and they gave me a free mag. They didn't really tell me what they did but now it works great.

Thanks for the ideas guys. I did check the feed ramp first thing. It is very, very smooth and looks great. Not even the slightest bump or ring.

This has happened on all 3 of my magazines.

I have cleaned the gun very thoroughly, although I dont remember giving the extractor extra attention. I will do that.

I agree and think that my next move is to contact S&W. I'm sure they will know the fix. I'll keep you guys updated.

 

[SWAT Lt.]

Did you buy the gun new or was it used? Any idea when it was made?

 

[markush]

Does this happen at a certain round number...for example the 3rd from the last round in the magazine? Load up your magazines and slowly strip the rounds out one at a time with your fingers...trying to simulate how the slide would strip it. Watch for the last few rounds to nose dive and for the case mouth to catch on the front of the magazine.

My two included magazines started doing this at about 300 rounds through each of them...new springs fixed it.

 

[GaryM&P]

Do your mags have the new style follower? Latest generation has "40" on the top of the follower.

 

[markush]

I called S&W about 2 months ago asking if there was a newer follower design and was told "No, there was only one follower design for the .40." Do you have an old style to compare it with to notice any differences?

 

[wkywthunter]

The gun is new, and it was manufactured in 2009. I have no idea which number it is in the magazine. However, the magazines do have the latest style followers, the ones that say .40 on them.

I'm trying to decide if I should try some Winchester FMJ 165gr, before I call S&W.

 

[BigRich315]

The gun is new, and it was manufactured in 2009. I have no idea which number it is in the magazine. However, the magazines do have the latest style followers, the ones that say .40 on them.

I'm trying to decide if I should try some Winchester FMJ 165gr, before I call S&W.

That would be a good idea since you've only used one type of ammo. Some guns are just picky for no apparent reason. The 165gr should have a narrower nose, which may help.

 

[GaryM&P]

I called S&W about 2 months ago asking if there was a newer follower design and was told "No, there was only one follower design for the .40." Do you have an old style to compare it with to notice any differences?

The 45 follower is unchanged.
The 9mm follower is on the third design.
The 40 follower is on the third design.

 

[Fastbolt]

The most common causes of a failure-to-feed include:

Mag not seated properly
Sticky mag follower
Bent mag lips
underpowered ammunition (light)
weak recoil spring
tight extractor

If your mag followers have "40' on the top they're likely the latest revision. The one on the right in the first 2 images is the latest (oldest to newest oriented left-to-right ) and on the top of the last pic.

I have some of the revised .45 followers out at my bench, although I couldn't see any obvious (meaning noticeable) difference when comparing them to my original .45 followers. Sometimes S&W lists a revision number for a part for something as simple as changing a vendor, though.

I have some of the new 9mm followers on order for one of the guys who has some older ones.

It's not exactly unheard of for an extractor to have collected enough fouling to sometimes result in feeding issues, especially when dirty ammunition has been used. A tight extractor has to be identified and resolved by a technician, though. Fit can be checked with a Go/No-Go bar gauge, which is something usually only armorers (or gunsmiths) have at hand. Initially armorers were told to buy extractor bar gauges to check extractor fit in .40/357 guns, but then I've heard that more recently the M&P slides and extractors are being produced to such consistently close tolerances that they aren't often requiring any fitting. (They keep telling me when I ask that there isn't even a .45 extractor bar gauge being made for armorers, FWIW, since the extractors are essentially dropping in and exhibiting proper tolerance in the .45's when checked during production of the guns.)

If brushing the extractor doesn't resolve the issue I'd call S&W and discuss it with them. They might want to try sending you a recoil spring or they might want to see the gun and check the barrel/extractor. Their lifetime warranty and prepaid shipping make it somewhat less annoying to return the gun to them than some other companies.

Just my thoughts.

Think about the 'underpowered ammunition' aspect, though. Does the gun exhibit the same feeding issues when the more expensive defensive loads are being used? It's certainly not unheard of for the 'less costly', or 'bargain lines', to sometimes exhibit more deviation when it comes to velocities than some of the more expensive lines made by the same companies. It can be really annoying when one rounds from one production lot do fine, but then rounds from another lot offer different performance.

I remember several years ago when we were experiencing some feeding issues with a particular low-cost major maker's line on the state contract. I was told by someone from the factory that we weren't the only ones reporting such issues, and that the factory had finally ended up asking for some ammunition from one agency reporting the problems. (The various commercial loads used for testing at the factory didn't replicate the reported feeding problems.) Once they started shooting the specific ammunition they received from the agency they were able to duplicate the issues.

One issue discovered with the budget ammunition involved an occasional case rim tolerance greater than that observed with the other commercial lines, which seemingly lent itself to occasional problems of the case rim slipping under the extractor hook.

Interestingly enough, I was told that they had also observed velocities significantly lower than those specified for the load by the manufacturer. Apparently some loads gave readings down in the 700's. I suppose that would qualify as 'underpowered).

I also later heard that one really large agency had gone to randomly testing rounds from each shipment received and had rejected lots which contained rounds which were observed to fall below the stated specifications in the contract.

Granted, that can happen to any manufacturer, and it can also happen to a premium line if something isn't right in the production. I remember when I learned of a recall for a specific series of production lots made for a LE production run - involving their premium line - where there had been at least a couple of reports of 'short-loaded' rounds fired in training by LE customers.

I also learned of yet another of the major manufacturers (we're up to 3 now in my examples ) where a large agency returned what I was told on the phone was pallets of cases of a duty load because of an unacceptable number of 'squibs' experienced on the training range. (And this is one of those fancy LE-only loads that folks on various internet firearms forums have loudly proclaimed how they're willing to go to different lengths to locate and buy it.)

Hey, it can happen ...

BTW, you obviously realize that the circumstances involved in shooting fast paced drills and courses-of-fire, combined with either a bit of shooter familiarity (grip stability issues with plastic pistols) and/or lower power ammunition, can sometimes result in more functioning issues than when shooting a pistol on a regular range, relaxed and shooting at a more leisurely, unhurried pace.

If better ammunition, cleaning the mag bodies of any shipping/packing oil and brushing out under the extractor hook doesn't resolve the problem (and obviously normal cleaning & lubrication), I'd call S&W and discuss it with them.

I can't be there to see the gun, ammunition or see you shoot it, however, so I obviously can't know what's actually involved in your specific situation. I'm just speaking from a generalized perspective as a M&P armorer.

 

[wkywthunter]

Wow, thanks for all the help from everybody and especially fastbolt, for the great mound of info you provided.

I do have an update: I bought a 100 round box of Winchester FMJ 165gr and headed to the gun club. When I got there, while fumbling through my shooting bag, I found a magazine still loaded with 6 rounds of the Federal FMJ 180gr. I popped it in and it failed to feed 3 out of the six rounds! THEN, I proceded with the same magazine to load and fire all 100 rounds of the Winchester FMJ 165gr, without a single failure...

The Winchester ammo is about $3. more/ per 100, but it looks like the problem is the Federeal ammunition... so I will be using Winchester as my practice ammo from now on.

However, I would really like for my M&P to be able to eat anything I put in it... Is that too much to ask? Should I still put in a call to S&W?

Also, I would like to correct a mistake I made earlier in this discussion. I said that I have the latest magazine followers marked ".40". However, I DO NOT. I thought I remembered seeing the markings on my followers, but after further investigation, I saw that was a different sidearm all together. My magazine follwers in the M&P look like the second editions in the post above by fastbolt. Will S&W send me the latest followers if requested?

 

[Fastbolt]

S&W should send you the latest .40 followers if you call and ask for them, especially if you explain that you're experiencing some feeding issues with some loads. They may be back-ordered, though,as these are vendor-supplied parts. The latest 9mm followers were back-ordered when I called to get some for another guy's M&P 9 a while back. If you have a problem send me an email or a PM and I can give you a name.

As far as any ammunition always running well in any particular pistol? Nice thought. In a perfect world.

We don't live in a perfect world, though.

Ammunition can offer variability. It's one of those things over which firearm makers have no control. (The rest being the individual shooter's skill sets & grip technique, the way the owner/user will actually maintain the firearm and the actual circumstances & conditions in which the firearm will be used.) Once the firearm leaves the factory there's a lot of things that can come into play which can't be controlled by the gun company.

It shouldn't be surprising that 'less expensive', bulk ammunition may not offer the same consistent performance as the more expensive ammunition lines. Think about how some makers may use different powder blends for different product lines. How about the consistency of flash holes in the cases? Case rim and length dimensions?

Think about how it's not exactly uncommon for some LE/Gov contracts to specify performance criteria, which can include velocity, and then write in the ability to reject any lots/shipments in which ammunition is found which doesn't meet the requirements and specifications stated by the customer.

Think about the potential for some variability when it comes to observed standard deviation among ammunition when it comes to velocity.

Also, consider the sometimes mind-boggling number of rounds being produced round-the-clock by some of the major makers. How about a company that can produce 1 million rounds in a 24 hour period?

The different mechanical actions that are involved in normal "feeding" in a semiauto pistol require certain things to happen at certain speeds and within a very short time interval.

When all is said and done, it's the potential for all of the various influences to come into play to different degrees, in different potential combinations, that can sometimes make things interesting and unpredictable. A slight change in one or more of the involved variables might be just enough to introduce a feeding problem for one person.

One of the consistent recommendations I've heard among the many armorer classes I've attended over the years if that if a pistol isn't offering the expected normal functioning when one type of ammunition is being used, then try different ammunition. You'd think there's some relevance to this when it's said by different gun companies over the years.

 

[brucev]

I do not currently own a M&P. I do own a G-22RTF with which I have been very well pleased. Since purchase I have fired 1,700 rds. of Federal 180 gr. FMJ in my G-22. The first 1,200 rds. were were 100%. Then in one box I had four failures to feed. This occurred with one magazine. I cleaned that magazine. The problem has not ever been repeated. I would just suggest that you look at your magazines. If the problem is not resolved, a phone call to S&W would be in order. JMHO. Sincerely. Brucev.

 

[GaryM&P]

Change the followers. Mine is 100% reliable with Federal 180gr FMJ.

 

[Fastbolt]

You'll notice that the newest revision of the .40 follower not only centers the last round, but also gives some added lift angle to the rounds.

The thought about checking to see if any shipping/packing oil is inside the mags is worthwhile, too. I've found lots of accumulated oil & goo in Mec-Gar mags upon occasion.