Quality Control

[Equus]

That's pretty bad QC. I must point out that I bought some S&Ws from the 1980s that were equally bad along with terrible Rugers and Colts. I have typed the following on here a dozen times: If you own a high quality good shooting gun, never sell it even if you don't shoot it much. Your tastes/needs in firearms will change and you will be kicking yourself for selling that fine firearm.

Woah there big fella. Get back in your corner and put those rose colored glasses back on.

Seriously, how do people manage to get home with a substandard firearm? I fully inspect my intended purchases before forking over my money and have a 37 year history of never buying a quality compromised firearm.

 

[Dave686]

Woah there big fella. Get back in your corner and put those rose colored glasses back on.

Seriously, how do people manage to get home with a substandard firearm? I fully inspect my intended purchases before forking over my money and have a 37 year history of never buying a quality compromised firearm.

I have been buy S&W's for over 50 years, bought more both used and new than I can count. I thoroughly inspect my guns. But there are problems you can't know about until you fire them. I have never had to send a revolver back, but in the last few years I have had to send a Shield and a SW1911 back. Both with mechanical failures that would not show up in a preliminary inspection without firing.

 

[Yankeetom]

I assume that the trigger was installed by a human? Did they not notice the flaking, or were they instructed to install them despite defects?

Did they install the cover screws also?

 

[blackdeuce]

Did they install the cover screws also?

Yes. Everything was assembled

 

[Dave686]

Yes. Everything was assembled

Those screws have been messed up by someone that didn't know what they were doing. Are you saying the factory did that?

 

[blackdeuce]

Those screws have been messed up by someone that didn't know what they were doing. Are you saying the factory did that?

That's the way it came to me, yes.

 

[Equus]

I have been buy S&W's for over 50 years, bought more both used and new than I can count. I thoroughly inspect my guns. But there are problems you can't know about until you fire them. I have never had to send a revolver back, but in the last few years I have had to send a Shield and a SW1911 back. Both with mechanical failures that would not show up in a preliminary inspection without firing.

Not one single mechanical failure mechanical issue since 1988 when I bought my first rifle in Garrisonville VA

 

[Dennis 52]

All the comments about "DEI hires" are just a cheap shot. Quality is the responsibility of management and I'm willing to bet that the management of S&W is overwhelmingly old white guys.

The "old curmudgeons" mentioned? They'd be fired because they couldn't do the work fast enough. Not because they're slow but because doing it right takes time. And time costs money.

No doubt there can be a shortage of people that are skilled but that doesn't justify the poor quality described in this thread. It should never go out the door.

I suspect the management of S&W would like the excuse of DEI hires but I don't think that's where the problem lies.

Everyone has their opinion on management, QC and DEI hires. Truth is management works in the big picture. They are not your everyday, line supervisor. If you get an above average DEI hire or a supervisor that is DEI leaning. Either production or HR. They hire the DEI workers, then they have to protect the worker, just to keep justifying their choice. At the cost of the company. So then management recognizes the problem but can't do a thing about it because HR says you can't just fire people because they can't/ won't do the job. You have to have a paper trail of lack of performance. Then everyday the company gets more and more broke(reputation and sales).

 

[poledorus]

Because of all the negative press here and on YouTube on new Smith revolvers, I've avoided them in recent years. Instead, I purchased a brand new Colt Python in 2023 and a new Colt Viper a couple months ago.

Unfortunately, they've been a huge disappointment. After several hundred rounds, the Python's cylinder started binding against the forcing cone even when thoroughly cleaned. It was repaired after a five week stint back at Colt.

I was only able to run the Viper for about 200 rounds when it began seizing-up about 1/4 the way through the DA action pull. This was on my third range outing with the revolver freshly cleaned. It's now back at Colt and I've been told to expect about a seven week turnaround. My reaction to that is, given my 0 for 2 experience, I'm not the least bit surprised they have a long backlog of warranty repairs.

Meanwhile (and ironically), the two new Smith revolvers I did buy back in 2012 and 2015, which have a combined 20k rounds downrange, have been flawless to this day.

I must say that I have been very interested in acquiring one of the new Colt Pythons, and find either the 3" and 5" very attractive. I also admit I have been skittish. While most of the comments on the Pythons have been very good, I still run into the odd disappointment. And given the high price point, it's hard to push that button when given the choice between the Python and a vintage S&W. Just the other day, I acquired an excellent condition S&W pre-27 for the price of a new Python...if these opportunities keep presenting themselves, I don't think I'll ever get a Python.

 

[poledorus]

That the CEOs are not gun guys is a salient point. Business history is replete in horror stories in technology/craft intensive industries where MBA marketing wonks (a good manager can manage anything types) are imported to fatten the bottom line and then bail leaving wreckage behind. Ford did this. They brought in a marketing whiz from Proctor and Gamble whose last assignment were Huggies. He canceled engine R&D development and Ford's brand suffered (remember the supercharged 4.9 L that melted down if floored?) tremendously. They offloaded him fairly quickly. GM is still suffering through a woke CEO. But they have drastically funded V8 development. The idea that a 6-7000 lb vehicle with a turbocharged in-line 3 cylinder is ludicrous. S&W will learn its lesson, but it will be ugly and painful.

How do you trust a CEO who does not use the product? Makes me all the more appreciate the late Bill Ruger. One of my favorite arms is the M77 RSM in .416 Rigby. There was no doubt in my mind the quality reflected the tastes and high standards of the man at top.

 

[Greyman50]

Very interesting thread, having been a " gun kid" in the late 1950s till becoming a " gun guy"a little later. My Dad collected 1800s Colt revolvers and had a 1902 Colt SSA and a 1918 1911 as center fire pistols. Many 22 RFs pistols and rifles and grew up shooting the cartridge pistols and rifles. Army school at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Vietnam then Army pistol team at Ft. Bragg. Managed indoor shooting range after ETS and having grown up on farm lots of shooting. Gun guy friends in town would come out to the farm and we literally shot just about every type of firearm including class 3. Got into machine tool manufacturing, installation and service. Met Bill Ruger and John Amber when Mr. Ruger bought his first barrel forging machine. A true Gentleman. Have bought and sold many many Colt and S&Ws pistols over the years( several wish I'd kept) and had a nice collection of US military weapons from WWI- Vietnam. Still go to MG shoots in N.C. with old friends. Only bought 2 S&Ws with the lock and are J frames and do not carry either these days.
There will Never be a substitute for excellent design and engineering including QC, Period. Anyone thinking differently has not " been there and done it". Current situation shows this, like it or not.
Bought a new S&W 610 Mountain Gun as it looked good at the gun shop. Once home and closer inspection discovered No forcing Cone! Easy fix and to the range. After 5 cylinders the gold dot front sight insert went flying! Swept area around firing point and no gold dot insert. 2 calls to S&W and still no gold dot insert. Guy at S&W said they don't use loc-tite as " it might get where it doesn't belong", amazing, just plain amazing for a $1.200.oo pistol.
Be the LAST new S&W I'll buy, will stick to older ones as I've done for 50 years.

 

[malph]

All the comments about "DEI hires" are just a cheap shot. Quality is the responsibility of management and I'm willing to bet that the management of S&W is overwhelmingly old white guys.

The "old curmudgeons" mentioned? They'd be fired because they couldn't do the work fast enough. Not because they're slow but because doing it right takes time. And time costs money.

No doubt there can be a shortage of people that are skilled but that doesn't justify the poor quality described in this thread. It should never go out the door.

I suspect the management of S&W would like the excuse of DEI hires but I don't think that's where the problem lies.

A 25% return rate for QC issues is deplorable and unacceptable IMO.

We don't know the real return rate. I'm pretty sure Smith would cite a different number.

 

[chief38]

We don't know the real return rate. I'm Smith would cite a different number.

Of course we don't know - I was simply responding to LtDonn's post about 250 out of a 1,000 example. That said, the number could be even higher! S&W would never publish that number anyway.

 

[malph]

I think the people blaming "DEI hires" are blissfully ignorant of the high-quality work put in by those same people to compensate for the lack of investment by the (old white) ownership and management. Boeing, S&W, etc.

DEI is a symptom of misplaced priorities. If the company's priority is some internal/social goal rather than producing the best product they can, quality will suffer.

I don't know if that happened at Smith. I'm not close enough to it.

I do know they bought into the idea that modern manufacturing could produce parts so uniform and of sufficient quality that revolvers could be put together like IKEA furniture.

They hired a workforce sufficient to support that model.

We see the result of that model. Revolvers that sometimes show the quality of IKEA furniture.

 

[malph]

Of course we don't know - I was simply responding to LtDonn's post about 250 out of a 1,000 example. That said, the number could be even higher! S&W would never publish that number anyway.

I think i saw somewhere where Smith quoted a 1 or 2% defect rate for their new revolvers.

I don't believe it.

 

[hike]

Again another performance center.Sent it back the next day probably want see gun again for months.Its been delivered there and sitting there for days but they said hasn't been received in there system.They said it's normal to have chips like that during the process of making the trigger.A brand new $1900.00 gun.

Replace the MIM trigger with a real, forged or machined trigger -- that's what I would do (especially if it's a working gun).

 

[chief38]

I think i saw somewhere where Smith quoted a 1 or 2% defect rate for their new revolvers.

I don't believe it.

Nor do I!!!!