Quality Control

[Winter2020]

Again another performance center.Sent it back the next day probably want see gun again for months.Its been delivered there and sitting there for days but they said hasn’t been received in there system.They said it’s normal to have chips like that during the process of making the trigger.A brand new $1900.00 gun.

 

[Gunz50]

On a production run gun that costs 150. To 250. Maybe a crappy trigger like that would be “passable “ but on a premium grade major manufacturer gun that costs that much, no freaking way. You need to follow up with as many calls as necessary and move up the food chain to get this taken care of, just keep everything civil, don’t take a bs explanation that this is normal and acceptable, because it is not. Good luck hope it goes well and fast.

 

[joebuck]

What junk. You can see the really bad flash line from the MIM process also. No pride anymore. Just get a full refund. I'm sure there will be other issues with it also. That trigger is "normal" if your production shop is in a jungle in the Philippines.

 

[ameridaddy]

No excuse for those chips.
I also noticed the crappy roll pin trigger stop with grinding flash around the perimeter. That's what the "Performance Center", more like Clown Show, did to my 25-5 three years ago, which wasn't even necessary because N frames then had an internal trigger stop. It wasn't the only thing they messed up, but now I see it was no fluke, just SOP shoddy workmanship. The worst thing they did was the so-called trigger job, where they shoved the hammer and trigger contact points into a buffing wheel instead of using stones and jigs, taking off the color case, polishing and rounding the sear engagement, filing the double action sear out of square and introducing terrible, mushy trigger creep. The gun shot 8" above POA at 25 yds, so their fix was to file .025" off the front sight, raising POI even more.

 

[Tinkertech]

OMG...............

I could have done it for you a lot cheaper.

I have a bench grinder in my garage!

Some or a lot of these performance center experts need to be fired.

 

[Hawg Rider]

It's one reason that so many folks are buying the new Colt snake guns instead of S&W revolvers! Very poor machining and QC!

 

[Tennessee Cattleman]

Smith & Wesson needs better quality control. Professional gunsmiths need to oversee revolver machining and assembly and do a final quality control inspection. The final inspection doesn't mean just a quick glance at the gun either. Wouldn't really take much to make the current S&W revolvers very fine firearms, providing the lock holes are done away with altogether.

 

[zodraz]

It's one reason that so many folks are buying the new Colt snake guns instead of S&W revolvers! Very poor machining and QC!

The new CZ Python is far from "trouble free ". Mine had a trigger pull worthy of a Charter Arms.
Actually had visible hammer lift IN SINGLE ACTION!.
I guess we are better off buying old guns,in good condition.

 

[bobsguns]

It's one reason that so many folks are buying the new Colt snake guns instead of S&W revolvers! Very poor machining and QC!

My last 3-4 revolvers have been all Colts. I did manage to sneak in a Smith 648 in there, not a PC model.

Much like Beretta has done in their TN relocation, I bet Smith has hired a bunch of non-gun DEI types.......................

 

[bigggbbruce]

Just get a full refund.

He completed transfer. Won't happen. Should have looked closer before completing paperwork.

 

[Rule3]

Again another performance center.Sent it back the next day probably want see gun again for months.Its been delivered there and sitting there for days but they said hasn't been received in there system.They said it's normal to have chips like that during the process of making the trigger.A brand new $1900.00 gun.

Strike two since 2024 Maybe stop buying new guns?

 

[GnarlsR2]

Geezz... I hate reading these type of posts!!

It's painfully disgusting to see a legendary firearm manufacturer, or any top rated manufacturer, sell a FIREARM in such poorly produced condition. The quality control and inspection process has to be top-notch for a firearm.
In all my years of buying and using a drip coffee maker, I've never bought one that didn't work right out of the box.
My Body Guard 2.0, "Handgun of the Year" took way too much work to get it reliable and trustworthy.

 

[bobsguns]

Geezz... I hate reading these type of posts!!

It's painfully disgusting to see a legendary firearm manufacturer, or any top rated manufacturer, sell a FIREARM in such poorly produced condition. The quality control and inspection process has to be top-notch for a firearm.

+1

I think there's several reasons for that. When Glock began to dominate the US handgun market, US gun mfgrs panicked. I'm thinking they wanted to sell MORE guns at a cheaper price, making the same profit over a larger inventory. They had to cut corners SOMEWHERE & QC is usually the first stop for that, sadly.

I think another sad thing to happen is the CEO's of Colt & Smith weren't "gun guys", just MBA-types from general industry. No difference between making a gun or a toaster, right?

Smith doesn't listen, but I contend that increasing the QC standards saves Smith more $$$. Keeps the gun(s) from coming back for warranty work, keeps the customer happy & buying more of that brand & spreads good feeling about THEIR quality. CZ & H&K get it, which why their guns have the lowest of warranty & QC issues.

For every Smith that gets test fired, I believe there should be at least two people inspecting each & every gun before it's approved. In fact, *I* would prefer three people. All should be "gun guys" rather than yanking someone off the floor & telling them to go be an inspector.

Were I owner of Smith, I would hit gun shows & hire all those old crusty curmudgeons that has a table full of old Smiths. I bet they could do better in 3-4 minutes per gun than the DEI hires could do in 10 minutes.

My .o2

 

[stansdds]

Also keep in mind that the craftsmen who made the finely fitted firearms of old are now retired and/or dead. I do not think there is a large pool of younger men and women who are looking to become craftsmen of firearms, but they can assemble MIM and CNC machined parts and send them down the line.

 

[chief38]

S&W just can't seem to get out of the free fall when it comes to deplorable QC! It has also occurred to me that the PC guns can actually be worse than their regular line! I guess the extra handling, extra work and custom features has created and opened up a new can of worms and adds more chances of them screwing it up. A company's QC always emanates from the top down and apparently the CEO and BOD's are either blind, deaf and dumb, have no idea what so ever on how to run a company, simply don't care or are just plain dumb. There is no other explanation as to why this has been getting worse and worse over the 2 decades the current company administration has been at the helm. What they have and have not done to bring this company down is deplorable! At this point it has finally occurred to me that S&W is in desperate need of a new owner, new leadership, a new BOD's and a super focused ideology on QC being job #1. Time for talking to them is over - they need to take action immediately or lose the company. It seems that a customer now receiving a great gun in proper condition and issue free, is now the exception - not the rule.

YES! I am upset that the nation's once greatest revolver manufacturing company producing the best of their kind, can no longer get it right - for about 20 years now!

 

[nll401]

All the comments about “DEI hires” are just a cheap shot. Quality is the responsibility of management and I’m willing to bet that the management of S&W is overwhelmingly old white guys.

The “old curmudgeons” mentioned? They’d be fired because they couldn’t do the work fast enough. Not because they’re slow but because doing it right takes time. And time costs money.

No doubt there can be a shortage of people that are skilled but that doesn’t justify the poor quality described in this thread. It should never go out the door.

I suspect the management of S&W would like the excuse of DEI hires but I don’t think that’s where the problem lies.

 

[Lt.Donn]

+1

I think there's several reasons for that. When Glock began to dominate the US handgun market, US gun mfgrs panicked. I'm thinking they wanted to sell MORE guns at a cheaper price, making the same profit over a larger inventory. They had to cut corners SOMEWHERE & QC is usually the first stop for that, sadly.

I think another sad thing to happen is the CEO's of Colt & Smith weren't "gun guys", just MBA-types from general industry. No difference between making a gun or a toaster, right?

Smith doesn't listen, but I contend that increasing the QC standards saves Smith more $$$. Keeps the gun(s) from coming back for warranty work, keeps the customer happy & buying more of that brand & spreads good feeling about THEIR quality. CZ & H&K get it, which why their guns have the lowest of warranty & QC issues.

For every Smith that gets test fired, I believe there should be at least two people inspecting each & every gun before it's approved. In fact, *I* would prefer three people. All should be "gun guys" rather than yanking someone off the floor & telling them to go be an inspector.

Were I owner of Smith, I would hit gun shows & hire all those old crusty curmudgeons that has a table full of old Smiths. I bet they could do better in 3-4 minutes per gun than the DEI hires could do in 10 minutes.

My .o2

But... warranty returns don't seem to bother some gun makers...I guess you send a thousand out and if 250 come back you simply work that figure into your pricing structure...and to heck with your industry reputation

 

[chief38]

But... warranty returns don't seem to bother some gun makers...I guess you send a thousand out and if 250 come back you simply work that figure into your pricing structure...and to heck with your industry reputation

A 25% return rate for QC issues is deplorable and unacceptable IMO.

 

[unspellable]

It's one reason that so many folks are buying the new Colt snake guns instead of S&W revolvers! Very poor machining and QC!

I've had poor results with Colt QA. And on top of that current pythons and anacondas have the California trigger, couple hundred bucks to get that corrected.

 

[chief38]

I've had poor results with Colt QA. And on top of that current pythons and anacondas have the California trigger, couple hundred bucks to get that corrected.

Can't say any company is perfect but I own many Colts, probably as many as S&W's and never had a single issue with any new gun. After 50,000 45acp rounds through my 70 series GCNM 1911 I had to restake the front sight (that took 5 minutes in my workshop) and replace a barrel finger bushing that they no longer use. Now they use a solid bushing on Gold Cups. I had many in my tool box to choose from. That's it! My vintage Smiths keep going strong as well! Never had any major issues I could not fix right here.

I know Colt had a few minor issues with the new Python's but that was quickly resolved. I have not heard about a "California Trigger". I can only guess that is a harder to pull trigger spring or a trigger that is intentionally slower. That is the State of CA, not the Company. Again, no manufacture is perfect, but the lack of QC in Springfield (now TN) is disgracefully allowed. It almost seems to me that their employees can only drop in semi auto pistol parts but when it comes to revolvers and their parts fitment, they are lost, bewildered and lack experience and work ethics. Plenty of manufacturers in a rush to market might drop the ball temporarily, but NOT for 20+ years!

 

[AveragEd]

Also keep in mind that the craftsmen who made the finely fitted firearms of old are now retired and/or dead. I do not think there is a large pool of younger men and women who are looking to become craftsmen of firearms, but they can assemble MIM and CNC machined parts and send them down the line.

And it doesn't stop with gunsmithing. I am a retired director of service operations for a GM dealership. I learned the hard way many decades ago that the "technicians" of today are not mechanics. When building our shop from scratch I hired experienced technicians with GM factory training and got lucky with my first three - they were good men, dedicated to the quality of their work. But then my luck ran out and I hired men who could not come to work on Mondays and/or turned out unsatisfactory work. It became frustrating for me.

One day, the parts manager and I were scrapping warranty parts and I wondered if our local Vo-Tech school had any current parts for use in the classroom. I loaded up a bunch of parts and gave them to the instructors. They were over the moon happy to have them and rewarded me by calling me every April with the contact information for their two best students. I trained them in my work ethic and sent them to GM training centers. We grew to be one of the highest rated service departments in central Pennsylvania. GM actually sent their problem cars to try us to avoid Lemon Law buybacks.

A great story involves a young man who had recently graduated from Ohio Diesel Tech but was stocking shelves at a grocery store. It turned out he loved electronics and this being in the mid-1980s, that was more valuable than I could have imagined. When the Buick Riviera was downsized and loaded with electronic equipment like a touch screen to control the HVAC, entertainment and other systems, GM had an eight-day Specialized Electronic Training course for which every dealership had to have at least one technician certified before any new Rivieras would be shipped to it. AND a tech had to pass a pre-test before being accepted to that class. My former grocery store worker placed eighth in the country on that pre-test and passed the course with flying colors!

These days, I'm gladly removed from that industry but now that I am on the other side of the service counter, I bitch constantly about how customer service has deteriorated in this country. The persons with whom we speak are either impossible for olde phartes like me to understand or lack the training and product knowledge needed to be able to help me.

Ed

 

[Dave686]

I'm a S&W FanBoy. I've been buying Smith & Wesson's for over 45 years and will continue to do so; they have a great product. So, I don't stomp my feet, hold my breath and say I'll never buy another one; that would be a lie. But I can say I'll never waste my money on a "Performance Center" gun again. There is absolutely no chance of that happening. Unless of course S&W decides to put "Performance Center" on all their guns, which kinda looks like the way they may be headed.

However.. when I got a lemon; CS was useless. And I will take every opportunity to call them out.

I've bought well over 100 handguns and the only one I have ever had to put an aftermarket trigger in is a "Performance Center" gun. If it was even in the Performance Center; I don't believe it never got off the cart. I think marketing is playing fast & loose with the PC name; and I don't want to pay extra for something I'm not getting. I had to buy an Apex trigger for it.

Even after I wrote to the President and the Firearms Director, and was contacted by a CS person that told me he was told by the Firearms Director to fix my problem; he showed me who was in charge of CS, and it wasn't the Firearms Director.

I spent most of my life in manufacturing. I fully understand that anyone can have a bad product get out. But It's a shame what Customer Service has turned into across the board. Smith & Wesson was the gold standard in Customer Support in the firearms industry. If something was wrong; they made it right. That simply is not the case anymore. And that sad.

 

[JwesleyN]

The new CZ Python is far from "trouble free ". Mine had a trigger pull worthy of a Charter Arms.
Actually had visible hammer lift IN SINGLE ACTION!.
I guess we are better off buying old guns,in good condition.

I don’t know if it’s true but I have heard that California requires a cocked handgun to be dropped at 5’ or something? I don’t have any new S&Ws to compare to the new Python I recently bought. The SA trigger was terrible at 6# with the hammer rotating back as the trigger was pulled. There’s what I can describe as a “speed bump” on the SA hammer notch. The trigger sear has to ride over the bump. I removed this bump and stoned the notch a little at a time putting everything back together for what seemed like 50 times but really maybe 6 or 7 checking the SA pull weight each time until I got just under 4# and left it there. Breaks clean now with no perceived creep. The DA pull was perfect the way it came.

 

[white cloud]

That's pretty bad QC. I must point out that I bought some S&Ws from the 1980s that were equally bad along with terrible Rugers and Colts. I have typed the following on here a dozen times: If you own a high quality good shooting gun, never sell it even if you don't shoot it much. Your tastes/needs in firearms will change and you will be kicking yourself for selling that fine firearm.

 

[Beju]

I don't know if it's true but I have heard that California requires a cocked handgun to be dropped at 5' or something? I don't have any new S&Ws to compare to the new Python I recently bought. The SA trigger was terrible at 6# with the hammer rotating back as the trigger was pulled. There's what I can describe as a "speed bump" on the SA hammer notch. The trigger sear has to ride over the bump. I removed this bump and stoned the notch a little at a time putting everything back together for what seemed like 50 times but really maybe 6 or 7 checking the SA pull weight each time until I got just under 4# and left it there. Breaks clean now with no perceived creep. The DA pull was perfect the way it came.

 

[Dave Haynes]

A good try now equals success...

 

[ImDrRich]

My God, how sick I am about posts such as these! Not to bash the OP, but he is correct.

I really want to like the Shield X but there is NO WAY I'm buying any more NEW S&W handguns until I read more positives than negatives - and I don't see that happening anytime soon. At this point I can only conclude that profits over quality is more important to S&W than ever, and that's a shame for this company as it certainly holds a place in American history.

 

[REParker]

I guess we are better off buying old guns,in good condition.

EGGS-Zackly!!

 

[bobsguns]

All the comments about "DEI hires" are just a cheap shot. Quality is the responsibility of management and I'm willing to bet that the management of S&W is overwhelmingly old white guys.

The "old curmudgeons" mentioned? They'd be fired because they couldn't do the work fast enough. Not because they're slow but because doing it right takes time. And time costs money.

No doubt there can be a shortage of people that are skilled but that doesn't justify the poor quality described in this thread. It should never go out the door.

I suspect the management of S&W would like the excuse of DEI hires but I don't think that's where the problem lies.

Let's explore my own personal experience when Beretta moved to TN.

I went to the job fair they held, excited about getting to work for Beretta, owning 5-6 of their 92 models.

During the speech by the 300lb HR sweathog (NOT an exaggeration!), she bragged about "diversity, inclusiveness" & the other buzzwords DEI likes to use. She even pointedly mentioned the large % of black females in the crowd of applicants, almost saying they were guaranteed a job.

On my application I mentioned the Berettas I owned, how well they were built, how well they shot, how much experience I had in shooting mine & how excited I was to hope to work there.

I never got a sniff. Got a form letter blowing me off.

After the TN got up & running, there was a flood of complaints & pics on-line in gun forums showing Beretta problems. Barrels not centered in the slide (way, way off), finish blems, excessive wear on contact points after only a few mags, etc. Draw your own conclusions there.

I have no clue who is working the S&W plant in TN, nor do I really care as I will NEVER buy one of their pistols. I do note the Smith Mass plant IS still making the revolvers, not TN. Draw your own conclusions there.

I've bought one NIB Smith revolver in the last couple of years, a 648 .22WMR. Love it. I've also bought three NIB Colt revolvers, one ea of a Python, King Cobra & King Cobra .22LR. No issues with any of the Colts at all. I believe Colt MAY have learned their lesson on sorry QC, but as I'm not there in the plant, I dunno.

Lastly, I don't disagree with the management being a major problem. I well recall the issues of American auto makers in the 1980s & 1990s. Toyota & Honda OWNED the US auto industry until they got their poop together.

My .o2

 

[bobsguns]

I've had poor results with Colt QA. And on top of that current pythons and anacondas have the California trigger, couple hundred bucks to get that corrected.

I've bought three Colt revolvers in the last 2 years. No issues with any of them.

No clue about your "CA trigger". Can you elaborate? I know they changed the Python trigger design with the new one, they HAD to in order to be competitive in the market.